Hate my Harman, Suggestions?

[daleeper]

the OP has already admitted to knowing 2 other guys with similar sqft who heat their houses with the same stove... If they are having such success, then something about his setup is different. wood quality, house layout, or insulation are probably the factors here...

Possibly the chimney also, I believe I have read that these stoves are picky on draft.

 

[MishMouse]

the OP has already admitted to knowing 2 other guys with similar sqft who heat their houses with the same stove... If they are having such success, then something about his setup is different. wood quality, house layout, or insulation are probably the factors here...

Possibly the chimney also, I believe I have read that these stoves are picky on draft.

Since the TL-300 is a down draft stove it is very picky.

 

[redhorse]

We are having similar issues with our TL300. We've had it about two weeks and have gone through over a cord of wood. It goes into secondary combustion but won't stay there. We've got various types of wood, some 18%, some kiln dried and 12-14%. We have zero creosote. We had a wood/coal stove and had good draw with that. One of the things they did when the installed it was put in a new connector to the chimney liner. They said they crimped it and shoved it in; if they put it in too far, that would affect our draft as well.

I've called the dealer a half dozen times and they keep telling me there is lots of "operator error" with this stove. We have a tech coming out this morning, so we shut down the stove. He wants to check out the components and then fire it up and check the draft. Harman keeps telling him it's a draft issue -- if the draft isn't at least a certain amount, the stove won't generate heat.

I decided to try the "paper" test (and used an envelope, not s single sheet) and it pulled out with no effort all the way along the length of the load door. I think I've found part of our issue anyway. My question: why did it come from the factory that way? No way did we over fire the stove, so I hope they don't try to say we did it.

I'll post on this thread after he is here to let the OP know what is up. I have heard that some of the TL 300 have had bad damper gaskets (they come loose). If you look into the damper with the front door open, you can see it hanging down if it's loose.

Oh, we can't get the room the stove is in up to 75 degrees...

 

[MishMouse]

I'll wait until its cool in the morning and move my gauge off the pipe and onto the stove top and check the temps. I'm assuming the best way to tell that the stove in AB is there is no smoke, which there isn't. THe only time I have smoke coming out of the chimney is right after I load it for a few minutes, then nothing.

If you are not getting any smoke out of your stack it does sound like the AB is operating efficiently.

Explain more detail about your basement.
Cement, block, wood, other?
How much exposure do you have?
How fast does the snow melt away from your foundation?

When I first got this stove my West wall had 5+ block exposure, my N, S and E had 2-3 block exposure.
I had the contractors come in and dig down to the foundation and put in 1/2 inch insulation on the outside wall, wrap it, install tin around the house and build the earth up around the house. Before this I had to keep the basement above 80 to get the upstairs above 70.
After this I only had to keep the basement above 75 to accomplish the same task.

Any exposed part of the basement is allowing for major heat loss, especially when it dips below zero.

Getting a bigger stove may not solve your true issues which are improper insulation in the basement and poor heat circulation.
As a bigger stove you will still need to get the basement into the 80's to heat the upstairs.

 

[Troutchaser]

With a good coal bed, I can't imagine why you'd have to keep that much air on the stove. If the AB is working, your stovetop should be hot. 600*+ easily.
More air on the wood=less burn time. If you need all that air to keep the AB engaged, then your coal bed is insufficient- or so it sounds.
Those deep coals are your friend. They allow for long, hot burns. With no smoke it sounds like the stove is working fine.

Check the stovetop with the therm. See how long you're maintaining hot temps. Then we can really determine if this is stove operation or location.

 

[summit]

We are having similar issues with our TL300. We've had it about two weeks and have gone through over a cord of wood. It goes into secondary combustion but won't stay there. We've got various types of wood, some 18%, some kiln dried and 12-14%. We have zero creosote. We had a wood/coal stove and had good draw with that. One of the things they did when the installed it was put in a new connector to the chimney liner. They said they crimped it and shoved it in; if they put it in too far, that would affect our draft as well.

I've called the dealer a half dozen times and they keep telling me there is lots of "operator error" with this stove. We have a tech coming out this morning, so we shut down the stove. He wants to check out the components and then fire it up and check the draft. Harman keeps telling him it's a draft issue -- if the draft isn't at least a certain amount, the stove won't generate heat.

I decided to try the "paper" test (and used an envelope, not s single sheet) and it pulled out with no effort all the way along the length of the load door. I think I've found part of our issue anyway. My question: why did it come from the factory that way? No way did we over fire the stove, so I hope they don't try to say we did it.

I'll post on this thread after he is here to let the OP know what is up. I have heard that some of the TL 300 have had bad damper gaskets (they come loose). If you look into the damper with the front door open, you can see it hanging down if it's loose.

Oh, we can't get the room the stove is in up to 75 degrees...

I'm callin BS on the first couple sentences: in two weeks there is no physical way you can burn thru a cord of wood... a face cord, yes, but you have put 128 cubic feet of wood thru that thing in 14 days? That works out to almost 43 full firebox loads (3 cft firebox w/ no coals or still burning chunks in it: dead empty 3 cft) breaking down to a full overnighter load of wood into a dead empty firebox three times a day. If you are blowing thru that much wood, and can't keep a single room at 75*F then you either: need insulation, a new moisture meter, or a new wood supply.

 

[redhorse]

I'm callin BS on the first couple sentences: in two weeks there is no physical way you can burn thru a cord of wood... a face cord, yes, but you have put 128 cubic feet of wood thru that thing in 14 days? That works out to almost 43 full firebox loads (3 cft firebox w/ no coals or still burning chunks in it: dead empty 3 cft) breaking down to a full overnighter load of wood into a dead empty firebox three times a day. If you are blowing thru that much wood, and can't keep a single room at 75*F then you either: need insulation, a new moisture meter, or a new wood supply.

Well, we bought a full cord of wood when we bought the stove and then another half cord. We only have about a half cord left. I did check the date we had the stove installed; I said "about two weeks". It was actually 2 weeks, four days. We were filling it up about 3 times/day, and often throwing in splits when we were home. (Past tense - we are no longer burning the stove as we can't get it to heat and the dealer is trying to figure out what might be wrong.)

There's another person with this same stove that says he is burning a cord within a similar time frame.

We had a wood/coal stove in here previously and had no issues; kept the room about 80-85 all winter, even with wood (coal was "warmer" more constant heat).

 

[branchburner]

We were filling it up about 3 times/day, and often throwing in splits when we were home.

I'm sure this rate of wood use is due to the fact you need to leave the ashpan door open. Hopefully when that crimped connection is fixed you can get the stove to where the AB will purr along for hours with the air mostly shut.

I think these downdraft stoves, when running well, still use a bit more wood than other EPA stoves. But probably in the range of 10% more. If you run them with wide open air, you could probably burn twice as much wood and still be getting a lesser amount of useful heat.

I like to run mine with air at about 1/4 open, give or take. If I run it 1/2 or 3/4, yes, I get more heat, but it is not proportional to how fast the stove plows through the wood. More air = more heat up the flue.

 

[MishMouse]

Well, we bought a full cord of wood when we bought the stove and then another half cord. We only have about a half cord left. I did check the date we had the stove installed; I said "about two weeks". It was actually 2 weeks, four days. We were filling it up about 3 times/day, and often throwing in splits when we were home. (Past tense - we are no longer burning the stove as we can't get it to heat and the dealer is trying to figure out what might be wrong.)

There's another person with this same stove that says he is burning a cord within a similar time frame.

We had a wood/coal stove in here previously and had no issues; kept the room about 80-85 all winter, even with wood (coal was "warmer" more constant heat).

If I was burning through a cord every 2 weeks since I started burning in October that would mean I would have burnt through over 10 cords of wood. Right now I would be surprised if I went through 5-6 cords so far this year and most of that has been soft wood with higher then I would like moisture levels. Last year for the 9 months that I had to burn the stove I used about 70% hard wood and 30% soft wood I only went through 6-7 cords for the entire period and this is MN where it can get below freezing from October till June. So there is some part of the equation that is being missed here.

What is your stovetop temps when you are burning this stove?

Are you getting the jet sound when you engage the AB?

How often are you cleaning out the ashes?
If you are going through a cord of wood every 2 weeks you would have a full ash bucket every 2-3 days instead of a week.

Have your stove person check to see if the bolts have come loose that hold the AB in place and also have them check to ensure the AB is not damaged. With this stove they should be able to access the AB through the back of the stove. Also have them check all gaskets.

 

[bigbear]

Since some of you were inquiring about stove top temps on my TL 300 I moved my thermometer off the pipe onto the lid. I put a full load of birch and oak in the stove and let the temp get to 500, closed the bypass damper and shut the front draft to 50%. After 4 hours, the temp was 375, after five hours it was 275 and past time to load it back up. Does this sound right?

 

[MishMouse]

Since some of you were inquiring about stove top temps on my TL 300 I moved my thermometer off the pipe onto the lid. I put a full load of birch and oak in the stove and let the temp get to 500, closed the bypass damper and shut the front draft to 50%. After 4 hours, the temp was 375, after five hours it was 275 and past time to load it back up. Does this sound right?

Myself I would not have the draft at 50% I would have brought it down to the 1st or 2nd notch.
Doing so the stove top would have stayed at around 500 for at least 4-6 hours especially with oak.
Sometimes it does take a couple of tries to get it to work the way it is supposed to especially when adding wood after 8-10 hours of burning.

 

[branchburner]

Myself I would not have the draft at 50% I would have brought it down to the 1st or 2nd notch.

Agreed, but step it down gradually. If it is very cold out, or wood is sub-par, I may burn a few notches higher, but never at 50% or more except for a short time when reloading. I am amazed at how much faster the stove burns through the wood with only an increase of a notch or two.

It's worth saying again, these stove need dry wood and a good, really hot coal bed to run their best. They are draft sensitive: too little draft and it is hard to maintain the AB, too much draft and the wood burns too quickly. Since every flue setup will differ, each user will need some trial and error with different air settings, stove temps, size of wood, how much wood, etc. in order to perfect the technique that works best for that particular setup.

One thing I can say with certainty: if I tried burning the same way from day one, and never experimented and changed up the variables to some degree (many times and in many ways) I would not be very happy with this stove. After a few years, I know it pretty well now, but after only a few weeks (even months) I knew very little. But I'm obsessed with perfection and efficiency, getting the most heat out of the least wood, and all that.

My wife, on the other hand, has used the stove a handful of times when I've been away and has had long, hot burns with no problems at all. She hasn't burned the house down or ruined the stove. Just fills it up, forgets about it, then remembers to shut it down, then forgets about it again, until she feels chilly. She has the touch.

 

[redhorse]

What is your stovetop temps when you are burning this stove?

We engage the AB when the stove top is somewhere between 450 and 600 (usually 500 or 550). In less than half an hour, that temp typically drops to 400 or 350, or lower and the AB kicks out).

Are you getting the jet sound when you engage the AB?

Most of the time, but not always. Then for awhile it sounds like a jet engine in the distance...

How often are you cleaning out the ashes?If you are going through a cord of wood every 2 weeks you would have a full ash bucket every 2-3 days instead of a week.

The last time we had the stove going, we had to dump about every 3 or 4 days.

Have your stove person check to see if the bolts have come loose that hold the AB in place and also have them check to ensure the AB is not damaged. With this stove they should be able to access the AB through the back of the stove. Also have them check all gaskets.

I scheduled a tech to come out and check precisely that, but he was by himself and said he couldn't pull the stove apart without help. What it comes down to is he figured it was an operator error issue. He needed to get a draft number before he would agree to do much else. After watching what the stove did while he was here and I was running it, he has decided that it is not operator error, but instead an airflow problem. But now he won't do anything until we get some stack temperature measurements. He's doesn't want to pull apart the stove until we remove any possibility that it is the chimney or a connection problem.

 

[MishMouse]

After watching what the stove did while he was here and I was running it, he has decided that it is not operator error, but instead an airflow problem. But now he won't do anything until we get some stack temperature measurements. He's doesn't want to pull apart the stove until we remove any possibility that it is the chimney or a connection problem.

Since the AB is so fragile I would expect that.
But, it sounds like you are getting closer to your issue.

After an 1/2-1 hour when the AB fails, you can take the temps back up to 500-550, when you do this the AB has a better change of staying lit since the stove is already hot at the time.

 

[zzr7ky]

The stove is performing well. The install is not. A basement install will heat the basement.

The 'stove performance' issues are splitting hairs. The wood, stove temp, flue, etc... are not going to materially change this situation.

If you want to heat the home with wood then you will need to select one of the following:
1- Outdoor Boiler

2- Wood Furnace

3 - 1st floor instal (messier)

I have used several wood furnaces that 'piggy back' to the plenum of the existing forced air furnace and they worked very well for me and several family members. All were basement installs. All fired morning and evening only.


All the best,
Mike