Heat pump water heater

[CHeath]

Hey guys, what are your thoughts on this? Im currently heating with electric and I want to get my energy bill down of course but I also want to help out with the environment. I have no solar tho it is in a future plan and I have looked at both a solar batch and evacuated tube setup but dont really want to pay for the install. The best bet would be a sun bandit setup with panels and a hyrbrid tank but oh my lord, the cost is unreal. $9999 installed. I do not think so! The ROI would be never.

Thanks in advance.

 

[woodgeek]

Solar hot water is dead. IF you have a system, use it. If you don't have one, forget about it.

As your title suggests HPWHs are where its at. Find a good location (semi-conditioned basement or garage) where it never gets too cold, and a little noise is not going to bother anyone, and go for it. Solar HW has about 50% capacity factor....about half of the water is heated by an electrical coil. That's like a water heater with an energy factor EF=2.

You can get a HPWH with an EF of 3.5...it uses a little over half the electricity of a typical solar HW system, per gallon of hot water.

If you want to go solar, and have a good site, put up PV. IF you are in the shade, try to buy wind power from your local (state level) grid, or found a solar garden in your community, where a lot of shady people can put their panels on a state or town owned brownfield.

 

[peakbagger]

Boy this Sun Bandit scam seems to be popping up more and more. I agree tube based collectors are dinosaurs. I have a set and they work well but I would not recommend it as the up front cost is steep. The best approach is heat pump hot water heater as long as you have a warm basement. Hard to beat this deal, http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Heat-Pu...888031?hash=item3f7495675f:g:RMQAAOSwj0NUa3~6 if you already have a good tank. (He happens to be a member of Hearth.com). Some one could home brew a Sun Bandit type setup by disconnecting the lower element on a standard heater and hooking it up to a couple of solar panels. Heating elements don't care if they are AC or DC so all you need is beefy DC relay to switch the PV on and off. (note the insurance company and the building inspector will frown on this).

The fundamental problem is that typically your need for hot water doesn't line up with when the sun is out. I produce scalding hot water all summer and part of the spring and the fall but don't use much of it. When I really need it is shoulder season and that when the sun isn't reliable. Pretty universally the new recommendation is a net metered grid tied PV system with a couple of extra panels to feed a HPHWHtr. The Sun Bandit set up is an over priced scam. You can put in 3.5 to 4 KW of PV system for the same price and get far a better payback.

 

[CHeath]

Would be a great idea but my electric heater is getting ready to turn the big 18! Lol

 

[maple1]

Yeah, forget solar.

Might come down to incentives in your area & your hot water usage on the HPWH decision.

In our case, heating our DHW with an ordinary 80 gallon electric tank heater only costs us in the $20-25/mo range, with 0.18/kwh electricity. And we only use it around half the year (heats by wood in heating season). We have no incentives. And don't dehumidify. So hard to justify springing the extra cost of HPWH over resistance electric, for us.

 

[Tegbert]

Yeah, forget solar.

Might come down to incentives in your area & your hot water usage on the HPWH decision.

In our case, heating our DHW with an ordinary 80 gallon electric tank heater only costs us in the $20-25/mo range, with 0.18/kwh electricity. And we only use it around half the year (heats by wood in heating season). We have no incentives. And don't dehumidify. So hard to justify springing the extra cost of HPWH over resistance electric, for us.

Man I saved 30-35 dollars a month switching to a hpwh a 50 gallon one at that. I wish it only used 20-25 a month and we pay .09/kWh. We have a 500 dollar rebate through the utility for them though and possibly another $300 when we do our taxes so all in all I paid pretty much nothing for it.


Lopi Rockport

 

[CHeath]

man that sounds awesome! My Duke energy costs are also .09/Kwh and I have a 2000 sq foot home with 5 people. The bill was not to bad for Jan at $176 but also in Jan, I changed out every single light to LED and installed a smart thermostat, smart power strips all throughout and we have been very intentional starting at the first of the year with conservation. Not only with that, but the water as well. So far Feb has been very mild here is the SE. Im hoping to see $150 but I am fore sure leaning against the HPWH for sure. Not sure if the 50 gallon would do the trick. I heard that the 80 runs less because of the need for more cold water coming in. Any idea on that? there is also a $350 from Duke on this unit. Not sure about the state of NC but I didnt see any on Energy.gov's site.

 

[cableman]

So far im happy with the geospring. I have an 80gal and have never run out of hot water. It does cool my basement to 56* but once off that goes back up to 57*/58* during winter. Winter use in heat pump mode it usually runs for 5/6hrs to recover, warmer months less.
Not really sure what its costing me to run, my bill has gone up but we have the highest rates up here on longisland.
I can say i did fill up my oil tank april 2016 and have 5/8th tank left.

 

[Tegbert]

man that sounds awesome! My Duke energy costs are also .09/Kwh and I have a 2000 sq foot home with 5 people. The bill was not to bad for Jan at $176 but also in Jan, I changed out every single light to LED and installed a smart thermostat, smart power strips all throughout and we have been very intentional starting at the first of the year with conservation. Not only with that, but the water as well. So far Feb has been very mild here is the SE. Im hoping to see $150 but I am fore sure leaning against the HPWH for sure. Not sure if the 50 gallon would do the trick. I heard that the 80 runs less because of the need for more cold water coming in. Any idea on that? there is also a $350 from Duke on this unit. Not sure about the state of NC but I didnt see any on Energy.gov's site.

The energy star label on ge website says the 80 uses $7 more per year. So not a huge difference. I couldn't fit the 80 in my current spot so 50 it is. The only time I run out of hot water is when the wife literally takes showers with no cold mixing at all. Drains the whole thing. The federal tax credit supposedly ended December 2016.


Lopi Rockport

 

[maple1]

Man I saved 30-35 dollars a month switching to a hpwh a 50 gallon one at that. I wish it only used 20-25 a month and we pay .09/kWh. We have a 500 dollar rebate through the utility for them though and possibly another $300 when we do our taxes so all in all I paid pretty much nothing for it.


Lopi Rockport

You must use a lot of hot water?

Good deal on the incentives though - puts it pretty close to 'no brainer' territory

 

[Tegbert]

You must use a lot of hot water?

Good deal on the incentives though - puts it pretty close to 'no brainer' territory

I don't the wife does but even then our old one was very inefficient and was rated at almost $500 a year cost.


Lopi Rockport

 

[maple1]

There also further things to do to help the juice bill - get the heater up on a stand, more insulation all around it (and between it & the stand), extra heat traps. I also did all of that, likely helped.

 

[woodgeek]

To the OP, with 5 people just get the 80 HPWH. Recovery is SLOW (but uses very little juice) so you want to have as much HW standing by to meet your demand (like 5 showers in a row). My daughter can run mine down after a 60-70+ minute shower (teens ). Since the grownups seem to shower in 10-15 minutes, I figure I have 4-5 back to back or simultaneous showers, then need 6 hours to recover.

I have (nice) low flow shower heads, 2 gpm I think.

I'm guessing you are spooked by the internet troll comments on the geosprings, esp from 5 years ago. Don't be. Get a warranty, Get an extended warranty. Register it (send in the damned card). And then save money.

The tech is mature and dead simple...basically its like a refrigerator compressor or AC window unit hardware wise...a tank and a compressor and a thermostat and a fan.

 

[CHeath]

I don't the wife does but even then our old one was very inefficient and was rated at almost $500 a year cost.


Lopi Rockport

so does my electric one. right on the sticker. To be more realistic, Im thinking $15-$20 per month but Ill take it for sure.

 

[CHeath]

To the OP, with 5 people just get the 80 HPWH. Recovery is SLOW (but uses very little juice) so you want to have as much HW standing by to meet your demand (like 5 showers in a row). My daughter can run mine down after a 60-70+ minute shower (teens ). Since the grownups seem to shower in 10-15 minutes, I figure I have 4-5 back to back or simultaneous showers, then need 6 hours to recover.

I have (nice) low flow shower heads, 2 gpm I think.

I'm guessing you are spooked by the internet troll comments on the geosprings, esp from 5 years ago. Don't be. Get a warranty, Get an extended warranty. Register it (send in the damned card). And then save money.

The tech is mature and dead simple...basically its like a refrigerator compressor or AC window unit hardware wise...a tank and a compressor and a thermostat and a fan.

I have 3 kids but they are on board with energy and water consumption already so thats good. We do 2 gallon shower heads also. Im going with the 50 if its qualifies for the Duke incentive.

 

[STIHLY DAN]

The energy star label on ge website says the 80 uses $7 more per year. So not a huge difference. I couldn't fit the 80 in my current spot so 50 it is. The only time I run out of hot water is when the wife literally takes showers with no cold mixing at all. Drains the whole thing. The federal tax credit supposedly ended December 2016.


Lopi Rockport

Plumb in a mixing valve at your hot water outlet. Set the tank to 140* set valve to 125* this will convert your 50 gal into an 80 gal.

 

[woodgeek]

Plumb in a mixing valve at your hot water outlet. Set the tank to 140* set valve to 125* this will convert your 50 gal into an 80 gal.

A reduce your EF significantly. The COP on a HPWH is highly temp rise dependent. The 80 at 125 would use less energy, even with tank losses.

I just hate mixing valves...they tend to cause those cold blasts. Awesome tech.

 

[STIHLY DAN]

A reduce your EF significantly. The COP on a HPWH is highly temp rise dependent. The 80 at 125 would use less energy, even with tank losses.

I just hate mixing valves...they tend to cause those cold blasts. Awesome tech.

That is true but he could not fit an 80 and purchased a 50. Its still much more efficient at 140 than an electric.

 

[cableman]

I have to back off the hot while showering with set temp at 120*. I think kids turn it all the way up cause they are not as close to the shower head.
Im gonna experiment with lowering their shower head via extension. Maybe, just maybe the little buggers will turn back on some hot!

 

[maple1]

Can available HPWHs actually get hot enough to need a mixing valve? I was under the impression they didn't get much hotter than 120 at most, maybe 130? They don't really extend tank volume more than mixing that would be done at the taps - temp out of the shower head would be the same, just gets mixed in a different spot.

 

[semipro]

My daughter can run mine down after a 60-70+ minute shower (teens )

That would send me over the edge.
After my son's go past 10 minutes in the shower I'm headed for the basement to turn off the supply valve at the water heater.

 

[STIHLY DAN]

Can available HPWHs actually get hot enough to need a mixing valve? I was under the impression they didn't get much hotter than 120 at most, maybe 130? They don't really extend tank volume more than mixing that would be done at the taps - temp out of the shower head would be the same, just gets mixed in a different spot.

Yes GE is 140* and there is one out there that goes to 150* can't remember the make. Yes that is true but it gives the potential for scalding. In the summer I have mine at 140* mixed to 116* In the winter I turn it down to 125* because I have a tempering tank off the furnace to supplement.

 

[Junebug90]

I just put in a rhem hybrid 50 gallon water heater. So far it's been great. Have it in heat pump mode and set to 115 and have had no problems. Cost 1k to buy put it in myself and if it uses what it says Vs what my old water heater says it uses I'm going to save about 500 a year. So I'm looking good forward to that. Also it has a 70gal 1st hr rate my old one was 43gal so win win win

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[cableman]

Sounds good. Isn't 115* a little low, id go 120*

 

[Junebug90]

Sounds good. Isn't 115* a little low, id go 120*

We started there as the default setting. It was a little hot as we have little ones. Tried 118. Then 115. It seems to be good for us where I can still steam up the bathroom but do they have to worry if my 3yo turns it on all hot. Haven't ran out of hot water yet..... give it 10 years when there will be 2 teen age girls.... haha

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