Heating with 160,000 claimed BTUs vs 132,000 BTUs

[BrowningBAR]

Huge difference. Last year I would always feel cold air rushing into most of the rooms, especially the rooms with the Heritage and the Intrepid. No such problem this year. Right now I am heating the house with just the Heritage and the Encore, and neither of them are being run hard.

A few things I noticed:
- I don't need to over heat a room anymore... unless I want to.

- During the recent cold spell the Vigilant was always less than half full and would be run down to 200-250°. Previous years, that stove was always cranking and that room would be 85°+ degrees in the hopes to get some of the heat to the rest of the house. Not the case at this point of the year and I suspect that will remain for most of the winter.

- I actually have heat retention. No new insulation was added over the summer. I chalk it up to the whole house being heated a lot better and no areas that can build up cold air, specifically the 24" thick stone walls. Once those walls get cold, it's a pain warming them up again.

- The Heritage seems like it is throwing a lot more heat this year since there isn't a rush of cold air coming in from three different areas (gallery, dinning room, stairs).

- Upstairs is 5-10° warmer. In the morning we are waking up to 65°+ temps as oppose to sub-60° temps. During the day the upstairs is 70°+. Really makes things a lot more comfortable.

We'll see how things play out when we reach January and we have long stretches of cold. But, it's pretty promising at this point.

A few things I'm thinking about:
- I might keep the Vigilant for another year, but selling the Heritage. The Heritage was going to be moved to the Vigilant's location and a larger stove was going in the Heritage's location. But, due to the fact that the third stove is being used differently, a soapstone stove may not be the best option since it take a lot longer to heat up. I can get the Vigilant up and running in 10-20 minutes. The heritage takes a lot longer from a cold start.

-Do I need two Defiant-sized stoves? Am I finally reaching the point of overkill? I was actually hot when I would get the Vigilant going over the weekend and a Defiant is larger. And two Defiants would be a whole hell of a lot of heat, it would seem. But, I really would like longer burn times from those two stoves. Again, I have to wait and see how things go this season.

-It does look like the 30NC is probably not going to work due to it's size and lack of low burn abilities. During the storm on Saturday, I had the room that the Vigilant is located in up to 80°, and that was with the firebox less than 50% full and skimming along at 450°-500° at it's peak.

 

[woodmiser]

I have found that contrary to what has been stated about soapstone taking long to get heated, I have not noticed any unusually long period of time for my soapstone stove to heat up. In half an hour I can have my stove top approaching 300+. The best part is at this stage it's producing usable heat and as the rest of the stove comes up to temp I can really reduce loading. Once the area is warmed I'm down to throwing in one or two splits every few hours, maintaining a nice slow smokeless burn. I do have to open the air up each time I load it to get the new splits into cooking mode. Once the rock is hot, the heat is easily maintained this way and it's nice and consistent without temperature swings. Even have to crack a window once in a while to mix in some cooler air.

For those of us that are using these stove 24/7 during the cold season, heat up time really isn't a big factor.

What I don't understand is ash production. You say your Heritage produces more ash. I don't know anything about ash and I'm curious how one stove can produce more ash than another out of the same volume and batch of wood? I always thought once it was white, there was nothing left to reduce. I'm thinking some ash gets swirled up into the chimney in some stoves?

 

[HollowHill]

Huge difference. Last year I would always feel cold air rushing into most of the rooms, especially the rooms with the Heritage and the Intrepid. No such problem this year. Right now I am heating the house with just the Heritage and the Encore, and neither of them are being run hard.

A few things I noticed:
- I don't need to over heat a room anymore... unless I want to.

- During the recent cold spell the Vigilant was always less than half full and would be run down to 200-250°. Previous years, that stove was always cranking and that room would be 85°+ degrees in the hopes to get some of the heat to the rest of the house. Not the case at this point of the year and I suspect that will remain for most of the winter.

- I actually have heat retention. No new insulation was added over the summer. I chalk it up to the whole house being heated a lot better and no areas that can build up cold air, specifically the 24" thick stone walls. Once those walls get cold, it's a pain warming them up again.

- The Heritage seems like it is throwing a lot more heat this year since there isn't a rush of cold air coming in from three different areas (gallery, dinning room, stairs).

- Upstairs is 5-10° warmer. In the morning we are waking up to 65°+ temps as oppose to sub-60° temps. During the day the upstairs is 70°+. Really makes things a lot more comfortable.

We'll see how things play out when we reach January and we have long stretches of cold. But, it's pretty promising at this point.

A few things I'm thinking about:
- I might keep the Vigilant for another year, but selling the Heritage. The Heritage was going to be moved to the Vigilant's location and a larger stove was going in the Heritage's location. But, due to the fact that the third stove is being used differently, a soapstone stove may not be the best option since it take a lot longer to heat up. I can get the Vigilant up and running in 10-20 minutes. The heritage takes a lot longer from a cold start.

-Do I need two Defiant-sized stoves? Am I finally reaching the point of overkill? I was actually hot when I would get the Vigilant going over the weekend and a Defiant is larger. And two Defiants would be a whole hell of a lot of heat, it would seem. But, I really would like longer burn times from those two stoves. Again, I have to wait and see how things go this season.

-It does look like the 30NC is probably not going to work due to it's size and lack of low burn abilities. During the storm on Saturday, I had the room that the Vigilant is located in up to 80°, and that was with the firebox less than 50% full and skimming along at 450°-500° at it's peak.

Thanks for posting this, BBAR. As someone in a similar situation (old, large, drafty house), I'm sure I've got a lot to learn from your experiences. I've been trying to convince my mother, who has a pellet stove, that she needs to get her place up to temp and then it will be easier (and less costly) to maintain that heat, than it is to try to maintain lo 60s. Her house is an icebox. I think the house is always battling to keep just above frigid temps, when it might be better if she had an "insulating layer" of heat. Is that what you are saying is the case at your place - higher heat output initially can cut down on overall heat output long term? Of course, the convective versus radiant might be a factor in this as well, with your radiant heat heating up the objects versus her convective heating the air. Haven't mentioned all this to the Physicist yet, can only take so much talk of quarks, black holes, and string theory a year - and somehow it seems even things like this boil down to that ;-) Are you thinking that you still need the three stoves, or will 2 handle it? So, is it a combination of higher BTU output AND placement of stoves that's the secret to your success? Congrats, btw, it must feel great to be getting a handle on the challenging heating situation, I envy you more than I can say ;-)

 

[shawneyboy]

I have to say something about the Soapstone heat up thing. I personally think the heat up may take a small amount of time more, but the cool down is far slower with a big rock than with a metal stove. To me it is a case of 6 in one half dozen in another. The only time I could see this being an issue is if you wanted to heat up, say a cabin, that starts at a very low temp, then the metal would heat that up faster, but in a normal everyday house I will take the big rock any day.

Shawn

 

[begreen]

Sounds like you have found equilibrium. Congratulations. I know getting a new stove is painful, but from your description I'd be considering a Fireview to replace the Vigilant. That is a stove that will idle at a low temp and yet can be turned up for heat quickly.

 

[BrowningBAR]

In regards to the Heritage vs Vigilant comment, this was not a knock against soapstone. If the Heritage was a cat stove, it would be staying without a doubt. It's not a cat stove and it does not heat up as fast as a single walled, pre-EPA cast iron stove. The Vigilant can start throwing heat in about 10 minutes and up to 500° in about 20 minutes. The Heritage will take 30-40 minutes to start producing heat. 30-40 minutes is note a big deal and it is not a deciding factor for purchasing a stove. But, in this particular instance, it is not as practical as the cast iron stove.

 

[woodmiser]

Aren't there problems with the refractory materials in the VC's? After reading about people paying out to replace that stuff every so many years at $400 a pop I would be slow to embrace them.

 

[jimbom]

Heat storage of 200 pounds of soapstone panels vs 200 pounds of cast iron/steel panels as they warm or cool 300 °F = Specific heat x weight x Δ T.

Soapstone 0.2BTU/lb °F x 200 lb x 300 °F = 12,000BTU

Cast/steel 0.12BTU/lb °F x 200 lb x 300 °F = 7,200BTU

Heat loss for our house is 23,000BTU/hour when it is 0 °F outside.
Heat loss for a large drafty house might be 120,000BTU/hour when it is 0 °F outside.

 

[jimbom]

Aren't there problems with the refractory materials in the VC's? After reading about people paying out to replace that stuff every so many years at $400 a pop I would be slow to embrace them.

Certainly a concern. I found a used VC and am going to use it as many years as it will last. At that point, I will make a decision on the refractory. Meantime, I have my keyword traps on the net for certain stoves. Should something come up that is too good a deal to pass, I might buy, recondition, and set it aside for the day the VC dies.

 

[Battenkiller]

I think the house is always battling to keep just above frigid temps, when it might be better if she had an "insulating layer" of heat. Is that what you are saying is the case at your place - higher heat output initially can cut down on overall heat output long term?

Haven't mentioned all this to the Physicist yet, can only take so much talk of quarks, black holes, and string theory a year - and somehow it seems even things like this boil down to that ;-)

Time to get that physicist friend on the horn.

What exactly is an insulating layer of heat? Newton's Law of Cooling states that heat loss is proportional to the difference in temp between a body and its surroundings. That means that the hotter you get your house, the faster it will lose heat to the great outdoors. This law is behind every HVAC calculation in existence.

I think what BBar is experiencing is the effect of eliminating those higher temperature peaks. Those are the times that the rate of heat loss is greatest.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Sounds like you have found equilibrium. Congratulations. I know getting a new stove is painful, but from your description I'd be considering a Fireview to replace the Vigilant. That is a stove that will idle at a low temp and yet can be turned up for heat quickly.

The Fireview is definitely on the list.

 

[leeave96]

I have found that contrary to what has been stated about soapstone taking long to get heated, I have not noticed any unusually long period of time for my soapstone stove to heat up. In half an hour I can have my stove top approaching 300+. The best part is at this stage it's producing usable heat and as the rest of the stove comes up to temp I can really reduce loading. Once the area is warmed I'm down to throwing in one or two splits every few hours, maintaining a nice slow smokeless burn. I do have to open the air up each time I load it to get the new splits into cooking mode. Once the rock is hot, the heat is easily maintained this way and it's nice and consistent without temperature swings. Even have to crack a window once in a while to mix in some cooler air.

For those of us that are using these stove 24/7 during the cold season, heat up time really isn't a big factor.

What I don't understand is ash production. You say your Heritage produces more ash. I don't know anything about ash and I'm curious how one stove can produce more ash than another out of the same volume and batch of wood? I always thought once it was white, there was nothing left to reduce. I'm thinking some ash gets swirled up into the chimney in some stoves?

I have found that my steel plate Englander heats up much quicker than my soapstone Woodstock. For one thing, I can let the steel stove on start-up rip without being concerned with cracking soapstone. The Woodstock, I take an easier time with it. However, once both stoves are going, when the fire dies down in the steel stove, the heat output goes with it whereas the soapstone is still radiating useful heat.

Bill

 

[BrowningBAR]

Aren't there problems with the refractory materials in the VC's? After reading about people paying out to replace that stuff every so many years at $400 a pop I would be slow to embrace them.

As Jimbo mentioned, it is a concern, and I am not ignoring the VC issues. But, I have heard that the most recent past models (if that makes sense) can use the new refractory materials that the 2-in-1 stoves use. And those materials are both stronger and cheaper.

I am also buying my stoves used, so my initial cost is much lower than if it were a new stove. The Encore I am using was $350 and in exceptional condition with an intact assembly and two catalysts. The two catalysts, if run correctly, could last me up to 10 years between the two. I could picture having to replace the refractory in 3+ years. That will run me about $275.

 

[leeave96]

One thing you might consider is a steel plate stove with a cat. That way you can get super quick start-ups on the heat side and then dial the stove down with a long clean burn. I wonder what kind of burn time I'd get with my Englander 30-NCH if I could turn it down like a cat stove, yet have the huge firebox stuffed full of wood.

One of the steel plate stoves that come to mind, is Buck and of course everyone's favorite - Blaze King. If buying used, I don't see any BK's, but do see Buck stoves around my neck of woods for sale from time to time.

Bill

 

[BrowningBAR]

What I don't understand is ash production. You say your Heritage produces more ash. I don't know anything about ash and I'm curious how one stove can produce more ash than another out of the same volume and batch of wood? I always thought once it was white, there was nothing left to reduce. I'm thinking some ash gets swirled up into the chimney in some stoves?

I'm not sure why the ash build up is different at this point either. I am only sharing what I have experienced at this point. I will be doing more observations in regards to this to see if it is actual or just perceived and that the Encore is just able to hold more ash than the Heritage. It could just be perception since the Heritage has a much smaller firebox, even though the listed specs say they are the same.

 

[BrowningBAR]

One thing you might consider is a steel plate stove with a cat. That way you can get super quick start-ups on the heat side and then dial the stove down with a long clean burn. I wonder what kind of burn time I'd get with my Englander 30-NCH if I could turn it down like a cat stove, yet have the huge firebox stuffed full of wood.

One of the steel plate stoves that come to mind, is Buck and of course everyone's favorite - Blaze King. If buying used, I don't see any BK's, but do see Buck stoves around my neck of woods for sale from time to time.

Bill

I have been looking at cat Buck stoves. But, due to a lack of posters here using cat Buck stoves, I am at a loss for information in terms of burn times and efficiency. Also, I don't like the fact that the Model 80 stove is 2.6 cu ft but requires an 8" liner/pipe. That's a little frustrating.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Thanks for posting this, BBAR. As someone in a similar situation (old, large, drafty house), I'm sure I've got a lot to learn from your experiences. I've been trying to convince my mother, who has a pellet stove, that she needs to get her place up to temp and then it will be easier (and less costly) to maintain that heat, than it is to try to maintain lo 60s. Her house is an icebox. I think the house is always battling to keep just above frigid temps, when it might be better if she had an "insulating layer" of heat. Is that what you are saying is the case at your place - higher heat output initially can cut down on overall heat output long term? Of course, the convective versus radiant might be a factor in this as well, with your radiant heat heating up the objects versus her convective heating the air. Haven't mentioned all this to the Physicist yet, can only take so much talk of quarks, black holes, and string theory a year - and somehow it seems even things like this boil down to that ;-) Are you thinking that you still need the three stoves, or will 2 handle it? So, is it a combination of higher BTU output AND placement of stoves that's the secret to your success? Congrats, btw, it must feel great to be getting a handle on the challenging heating situation, I envy you more than I can say ;-)

I will definitely need three stoves. Once the temps drop, somewhere between 30-36 I notice areas of the house cooling down that would normally be taken care of by the third stove. Also, we have not had a prolong period of cold yet. Heating needs differ when outside temps stay below freezing for several days as oppose to periodically.

In regards to retaining heat, my feeling is that it is all about the additional BTUs. Since there are no parts of the house that are staying cold, the house stays warmer longer. I still have hideous heat loss that needs to be addressed in the future. No flapping curtains on windy days, but there is still a lot of areas that could be improved. Some are costly and will have to wait.

Later, I will post up my floor plan again to give you a better idea with what I am working with and how the heat travels.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Heat storage of 200 pounds of soapstone panels vs 200 pounds of cast iron/steel panels as they warm or cool 300 °F = Specific heat x weight x Δ T.

Soapstone 0.2BTU/lb °F x 200 lb x 300 °F = 12,000BTU

Cast/steel 0.12BTU/lb °F x 200 lb x 300 °F = 7,200BTU

Heat loss for our house is 23,000BTU/hour when it is 0 °F outside.
Heat loss for a large drafty house might be 120,000BTU/hour when it is 0 °F outside.

Wow, thanks for the post.

My home is 2,150 sq ft. I don't think it's a large home, kind of medium. But I fully admit to it being drafty.

 

[HollowHill]

I think the house is always battling to keep just above frigid temps, when it might be better if she had an "insulating layer" of heat. Is that what you are saying is the case at your place - higher heat output initially can cut down on overall heat output long term?

Haven't mentioned all this to the Physicist yet, can only take so much talk of quarks, black holes, and string theory a year - and somehow it seems even things like this boil down to that ;-)

Time to get that physicist friend on the horn.

What exactly is an insulating layer of heat? Newton's Law of Cooling states that heat loss is proportional to the difference in temp between a body and its surroundings. That means that the hotter you get your house, the faster it will lose heat to the great outdoors. This law is behind every HVAC calculation in existence.

I think what BBar is experiencing is the effect of eliminating those higher temperature peaks. Those are the times that the rate of heat loss is greatest.

Yup, now that you mention it, that does sound familiar... Just don't mention it to Mom (she's even worse at Physics than I am), I'm trying to get her to crank her pellet stove above 62* ;-)

 

[BrowningBAR]

Attached is my floor plan to understand what I am working with.

The house is 2,150 sq ft. Stone walls in three quarters of the house.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like you have found equilibrium. Congratulations. I know getting a new stove is painful, but from your description I'd be considering a Fireview to replace the Vigilant. That is a stove that will idle at a low temp and yet can be turned up for heat quickly.

The Fireview is definitely on the list.

Given the choice between a pair of old dirty burners and one new, clean burner, this seems like an easy choice, especially with the good sale price.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Sounds like you have found equilibrium. Congratulations. I know getting a new stove is painful, but from your description I'd be considering a Fireview to replace the Vigilant. That is a stove that will idle at a low temp and yet can be turned up for heat quickly.

The Fireview is definitely on the list.

Given the choice between a pair of old dirty burners and one new, clean burner, this seems like an easy choice, especially with the good sale price.

Well, I won't make it for the sale. A stove will be purchased in the off-season. Still unsure which stove at this point. I would like longer burns in the living room which will get more use and help with maintaining upstairs' temps. Problem is, that I can not do a Fireview in the Living room due to clearances. That means it will be a catalytic Encore or Defiant in that room. A T6 would work, also, for that room for a few reasons. But, used ones are rare and I'm still leaning toward a cat. For the walk-in fireplace, a Fireview would work.

Out of curiosity, what is the second 'dirty burner' you were referring to? I'm assuming one was the Vigilant.

 

[greythorn3]

how about stacking firebricks around the steel stove a foot or 2 away so it heats them firebricks to retain some heat when it goes out?

 

[Highbeam]

I come home to a cool house every day this time of year, say 63. My system is to not heat the home while we are at work during the day unless it gets really cold out but to heat it up when we are home and let the night's load die in the morning.

Anyway, the heritage takes a long time to begin heating the place up. Fire starts fine, I am pumping 1000 degree air up the double wall stack in short time, but the stove doesn't get hot for a long long time. Expect an hour to go by before room temps rise. Sure, you can burn your hand on the glass but the room temp is what I'm trying to raise.

I am jealous, BAR, that you get to try so many cool stoves. I would love to run a cat stove.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I come home to a cool house every day this time of year, say 63. My system is to not heat the home while we are at work during the day unless it gets really cold out but to heat it up when we are home and let the night's load die in the morning.

Anyway, the heritage takes a long time to begin heating the place up. Fire starts fine, I am pumping 1000 degree air up the double wall stack in short time, but the stove doesn't get hot for a long long time. Expect an hour to go by before room temps rise. Sure, you can burn your hand on the glass but the room temp is what I'm trying to raise.

I am jealous, BAR, that you get to try so many cool stoves. I would love to run a cat stove.

Jealousy works both ways. I am jealous of those that burn 3-4 cords of wood and only load one stove to stay warm.

You begin to get concerned that others are looking at you like the crazy guy that is always buying stoves.