Hello and Help!?

[foundationsmcr]

Hi guys, new to the forum. Searched all over the internet as we're looking at investing in a multifuel burner and I need some advice. Can anyone help? I've had several people out to quote me for the work and they all seem to give differing advice.

We’re replacing a gas effect fire with a multi-fuel burner (burning wood and smokeless fuel) in a detached, stone built Victorian house with a large fireplace and chimney breast. It will be a 4.9Kw burner only used to heat the room it’s fitted in and it’s on an end gable wall in a detached house. The chimney stack is at least 11 meters high. The options I’ve been presented with from various quotes have left me wondering, can anyone give their opinion on the following;

I’ve been told to insulate the liner because condensation will form on the outside and run down potentially causing damage.
I’ve been told to avoid fireboard in the hearth as it becomes unstuck over time.
I’ve been told to choose a metal/fireboard register plate
I’ve been told there’s no real advantage to 904 grade liners as long as you sweep it regularly.

So that leaves me with the following questions;

Fireboard or metal register plate and reasons/benefits why
Fireboard or fireproof render on the hearth and reasons/benefits why (we might just leave bare stone)
Chimney flue liner insultation or not and reasons/benefits why
316 or 904 grade liner and reasons why

Can anyone help on these 4 points please?

Thanksin advance!

 

[jeff_t]

A little reading on 316 vs 904. http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5124.0 Insulate it if it's exterior. Condensation also leads to creosote formation.

Your location and typical winter climate would be helpful. Your terminology is a bit different than we are used to, so be patient. Pics would help too, and an example of the type of heater you are considering.

And welcome. Lots of good folks here who will be along to help.

 

[foundationsmcr]

A little reading on 316 vs 904. http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5124.0 Insulate it if it's exterior. Condensation also leads to creosote formation.

Your location and typical winter climate would be helpful. Your terminology is a bit different than we are used to, so be patient. Pics would help too, and an example of the type of heater you are considering.

And welcome. Lots of good folks here who will be along to help.

Hey Jeff, thanks for the swift reply and the advice, I'll have a read through the linked info.

I'm based in Glossop, Derbyshire where it's often wet and cold. I'm currently considering a Stovax Stockton 5 for the size of the room (11'x14' room). It wont be used for heating water, just for burning logs and smokeless fuel.

Here's a picture of the current gas fired set up.



Here's a picture of my wife and parents when viewing the house before we bought it. The chimney stack runs in the centre of the wall on the right, behind the shed.



Is there any other info/pics I can provide that might help with the advice?

 

[Jags]

I agree that we have a bit of a disconnect with some of the terminology.

Insulated liner - there is NO downside. Do it.
"Fireboard" in the hearth - could you explain the purpose of this? Is this to create a non-combustible surface?
Metal/Fireboard register? What register is needed and why?
The basic difference in the 300 series to 900 series stainless is that the 300 series contains more carbon steel. It can rust - albeit at a very reduced rate when compared to carbon steel. The 900 series is much more rust/corrosion resistant.

Very nice looking home and welcome to the forum. What circa was the home built?

 

[foundationsmcr]

I agree that we have a bit of a disconnect with some of the terminology.

Insulated liner - there is NO downside. Do it.
"Fireboard" in the hearth - could you explain the purpose of this? Is this to create a non-combustible surface?
Metal/Fireboard register? What register is needed and why?
The basic difference in the 300 series to 900 series stainless is that the 300 series contains more carbon steel. It can rust - albeit at a very reduced rate when compared to carbon steel. The 900 series is much more rust/corrosion resistant.

Very nice looking home and welcome to the forum. What circa was the home built?

Thanks for the compliment, we've worked hard and scrimped to be able to afford our dream home, so we want to get this right as we intend to be here for a long time to come. On that note, the corrosion risk on the 300 liner, what kind of lifetime difference would there be between the two?

We think the house is actually 2 houses knocked through. The front is circa 1840, whilst the rear section of the house (where the black door is on the photo above) is probably a lot older as it has much lower ceilings and a stone flagged floor in one of the rooms. We're number 43, and our neighbour is 47 so presumably the rear portion of the house was once number 45 until someone bought both properties and knocked them through. We can't wait to find out more of the history of the place.

Here's a couple of taster pics to show why we fell in love with the place.





Regarding the insulation, would you go for a lagged liner then or vermiculite loose fill poured down around it?
Register plate is what our flue pipe would feed up through to create a closed cavity rather than having an open chimney breast into the lounge.
Fireboard, yes this is the fire-proof material often used to create a surround. It's usually applied with some form of adhesive to the wall but I've heard tales of it peeling off over time. It's also used to make the register plate I mentioned before.

 

[Jags]

If I understand correctly - the register plate that you speak of is what we call a block-off plate. Basically a plate to block off heated air from going up the chimney. And yes - this is a good idea. It really doesn't matter what materials are used as long as they are non-combustible. Tin is often used on this side of the pond.

Unless there was a need, I would avoid covering that beautiful stone work with fireboard. Clearance to combustibles must be followed as per the manual - so I don't know if that is a consideration.

Either method of insulation works. Often the deciding factor is if one is easier to accomplish over the other.

Again - beautiful home.

 

[foundationsmcr]

Cheers for the info, much appreciated.

 

[begreen]

Have they discussed the clearance requirements for the stove from the mantel and side woodwork?

 

[foundationsmcr]

Hi begreen, yes, we're removing some of the wood fascia from the mantle and in front of the fire, and putting down some stone flagging as a hearth.

 

[Ashful]

Beautiful home. The photo of the fireplace housing the gas stove is too small to see a lot of detail, but it may not be necessary to remove the wood surround, if you can provide some visually acceptable shielding. The clearances to combustables requirements off the front corners of your stove, which are likely more than 20" with no shielding, may be 15" or less with shielding. Depending on distances, etc., the shielding likely does not have to cover the woodwork you are looking at, but very likely only the faces that are line-of-sight to the stove. Depending on your mantel height and protrusion, there may also be requirements for a mantel shield. As you narrow your choice on the stove, look in each manual for these details. The sheilding is often sheet metal, spaced 1" off the woodwork, and could likely be something attractive such as patina'd copper.

More importanty, what about a hearth extension? That looks like carpet running right up to the front of the firebox? Are there plans to remove that and provide 18" of noncombustable material in front of the stove doors?

 

[foundationsmcr]

Beautiful home. The photo of the fireplace housing the gas stove is too small to see a lot of detail, but it may not be necessary to remove the wood surround, if you can provide some visually acceptable shielding. The clearances to combustables requirements off the front corners of your stove, which are likely more than 20" with no shielding, may be 15" or less with shielding. Depending on distances, etc., the shielding likely does not have to cover the woodwork you are looking at, but very likely only the faces that are line-of-sight to the stove. Depending on your mantel height and protrusion, there may also be requirements for a mantel shield. As you narrow your choice on the stove, look in each manual for these details. The sheilding is often sheet metal, spaced 1" off the woodwork, and could likely be something attractive such as patina'd copper.

More importanty, what about a hearth extension? That looks like carpet running right up to the front of the firebox? Are there plans to remove that and provide 18" of noncombustable material in front of the stove doors?

Hi Joful, sorry, I'm probably losing myself in translation. The stone flags laid for the hearth will protrude much further from the firebox to comply with regs.

So to clarify;

Insulate the liner (I'll probably go for a sleeve type rather than loose fill)
Opt for 904/904 if financially viable
Leave the stone bare behind and to the side of the stove if presentable.
Ensure there is sufficient clearance from the sides/top/front in terms of combustables
Block-off can be either fireboard or steel.

Really appreciate the help people. I'll come back and post pics once the work has started!

 

[Jags]

Sounds to me like you have a good plan going forward. Please post pics - we like pics.

 

[begreen]

Agreed. Good to hear you are proceeding safely. I'm curious about the stove choice. The stove will be on the smaller side. How will it be used and how will the house be heated overall? Will there be several fires in smaller area stoves? If the floor plan is closed off by doors and hallways, then this may be the best way. However, if the room is open to other major rooms in the house perhaps a larger stove will mean less fires to burn and less frequent refilling?

 

[Billybonfire]

Hello and welcome,
looks like most of your questions have been answered, just a couple of bits of further info, most stoves in the UK are sealed off from the chimney stack with a steel register plate fixed in place with angle iron.
This is because in older brick/stone houses a loose brick or bit of cement could fall down and cause damage, a steel register plate would prevent this possibility.
904 liner is advised if burning smokeless fuels, and or wood.
316 is for wood only.
Liners within a chimney stack on an outside wall are best insulated as they are colder than internal chimneys, your stove will work much better .

Nice house by the way.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

love the pics! as for the stove you choose , my gut is telling me this.. if you intend to be a "24-7" burner its not as big a deal but i see a lot of thermal mass to heat up in the pictures even with the v-mite pour you have much exposed stone on the interior. this will absorb heat (which means you wont enjoy it as fast from a cold start) if you intend to burn fairly constantly look for a stove that rates about 20% higher in sq footage (or meters being over there) of coverage (or heating capacity) if you intend to burn just on cold nights look for a stove with a higher percentage above your intended square footage of heating capacity say your footage plus about 35% otherwise you will warm the walls but not so much the space between them (the rooms)

 

[foundationsmcr]

Wow, this place is fantastic for info!!

Begreen - It's a closed off lounge and we have a fantastic condensing combi boiler running our Central Heating. We have a Squirrel (pre-fitted) in our Dining Room, with the Central Heating we should be ok.

Billybonfire - Thanks for the info on the register plate. Duly noted.

Stoveguy2esw - We're never likely to slumberburn (?) and will only run it on cold nights, not on a daily basis (well, I'm saying that before I've been hypnotised by the flames!). It's only intended to heat the room it's located in because the 2 doors in the room, 1 leads into a hallway, the other leads into the kitchen, neither of which require heating. With this in mind, and the size of the room, are you saying the S5 is too small? As a typical man, I'd always say "bigger is better", but I've heard horror stories about people taking on a monster and only being able to light it with the windows open. Besides which, I'm keen to avoid having to install a vent in the room which I understand is a requirement above 5Kw?

 

[begreen]

From the description it sounds like you have a good fit with this stove. I was just checking to be sure.

We don't get any reports on the Stovax line here so it will be a treat to hear how it works out for you. Enjoy the new heater and take some more pictures when it's done.

 

[fossil]

Good thread all around. It's always interesting and enlightening to have folks outside of North America find us here and open up a conversation. I think "slumberburn" is now one of my favorite words. Thanks, and welcome to the forums! Rick

 

[BrotherBart]

Like everyone else, love the house. 904 is usually used as the inside layer of a liner wrapped in 316L or 316ti stainless. Advantage being corrosion resistance with harsher fuels than cord wood. If the only thing you will burn is wood the 316 will perform just as well. The exception being that a double wall 904 smooth wall interior liner will draft better slightly better. And cost just one leg, not an arm and leg more than a 316ti liner.

Edit to add: Condensation running down is only going to happen after the fire goes out. When it is hot in that chimney nothing is going to be trying to go down. Physics being what it is. I don't live in Jolley Old. But there hasn't ever been any condensation trying to come down the outside of my liners. And this place is a swamp all winter.



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