Hello everyone, and a few questions...

[braeden]

First off, great site! There sure are a lot of knowledgable people here willing to help out newbies like me. Thanks!

I live in Southern Ontario, and my wife and I just bought our first house. Well, if it passes the home inspection on Tuesday it will be ours on Dec. 14. It's an older home, with an old gas furnace and there is an addition on the house that has an open fireplace in it. The addition is a family room on the main level with a large bedroom above it. Both rooms are heated with baseboard heaters, but I am thinking on getting an insert for the fireplace to make it a little more efficient. And if poosible, heat the entire 1800 or so square footage of the entire house. I work at a place where we go through several coils of steel which come on two 4"x 4" lengths of dry hardwood about 24" long with softwood 2"x 4"s running across them. Every day we go through about ten of these, so I have a good source for free clean wood.

From what I've read about these inserts they are capable of heating this much area, but my concern is the layout of the house. I'll post a couple pics of the house to show you what my concerns are.

The first pic is the family room with the existing fireplace.

The second pic is the the back of the house, you can see the addition with the chimney on the right

Third shows the the path the heat would have to go to get to the rest of the house. Out and to the left is the kitchen, and you can see the narrow staircase going up to the upstair bedrooms. at the top of the stairs are the bedrooms on the original part of the house and to get to the master bedroom on the addition you have to turn right at the top of the stairs and walk down a long narrow hall.

I don't know how easily the heat will flow around a house like this and was wondering if you guys have any sugestion as to the best way to warm the house without using the baseboard heat of having the furnace on too much.

Thanks for reading this!

 

[Eric Johnson]

Is that electric baseboard or hot water?

Also, your wood source might be a little too dry. You might want to mix some greener wood in so that it doesn't overheat your stove.

 

[braeden]

Thanks guys!

Electric baseboards throughout the addition.

Ya the wood source is really dry. I'm glad you mentioned that or I wouldn't have known. This will be the first fireplace i've ever run.

 

[hilly]

You will also want to make sure you get a blower for your insert or you will lose a lot of heat to the surrounding chimney which will end up outside.

 

[braeden]

Ok, this may be the most stupid question ever asked, but online anonynimity sometimes has it's advantages.

Could a person somehow make dry wood more fireplace friendly by dunking in water or hosing down a big stack of it before throwing it in?

Yup, thats right, I asked it :red:

 

[begreen]

Welcome braeden. Your concern about the layout being poor for heat distribution are correct. Multiple stoves or a central wood boiler or furnace may be an option to consider for the future. What is the sq ftg of the house. What kind of windows? How well insulated? Is there a basement?

While the fireplace may seem like the obvious place to put an insert, an exterior chimney usually performs poorly and often can have creosote issues. An insert installed there will need an insulated liner. It will be a challenge to heat the whole house given that it is at one end of the house, but it will help a lot. When you move in, you might want to examine the attic to see if there was an original chimney chase, perhaps coming up from the kitchen. Homes that were exclusively heated with wood usually have their chimney centrally located. A somewhat open floorplan assists the heat distribution.

 

[begreen]

Ok, this may be the most stupid question ever asked, but online anonynimity sometimes has it's advantages.

Could a person somehow make dry wood more fireplace friendly by dunking in water or hosing down a big stack of it before throwing it in?

Yup, thats right, I asked it :red:

I'd just get a cord of less seasoned wood (not green) to mix in with it. Not too much though. That exterior chimney is likely a creosote producer and doesn't need more fuel (green wood = creosote). Be sure to have the chimney inspected before burning.

Running it as a fireplace will likely be a net heating loss. That is more heat heading out of the room as the fire starts and dies down, then net gain. An insert with an insulated liner will help reverse that situation.

 

[braeden]

Thank you for the help everyone.

I'm not sure what type of windows the house has, but they have been updated and look farely new. I can't say for sure but it seems to be insulted well. The couple of times I've been through it I checked for drafts around windows and doors and it seemed sealed up quite well. The house is roughly 1800 square feet and there is 2 seperate basements one under the original house and one under the addition. Both full basements with the new one being somewhat finished for a games room. It has an electric baseboard heater in it. The basements where not included in square footage.

I see this is going to take a little more thought than I had originally hoped.

So if I buy the liner kit for the insert and insulate it, I can use the existing chimney just to run the pipe up withour building any creosite in the old brick chimney right? Or is that something that I will still have to worry about?

We have a home inspector going through it Tuesday, and he is W.E.T.T. certified, so if you guys could suggest some of the things I should be asking him about the chimney that would help. We will be going through the attic so we will look around to see if there is an old chimney chase.

Now without an open layout house, is there anything that can be done to help flow the heat around? I was thinking about putting vent fans in the floors of some of the upstairs rooms to pull the cold air down to the main level to help bring some of the heated air upstairs. Is that a bad idea?

I'm going to spend some more time reading through some of the threads here, maybe these questions have been touched on and I can get a more understanding of what I can and shouldn't do.

Thanks again!

 

[begreen]

Have the inspector check the chimney out from top to bottom. You'll want to know the condition of the bricks and mortar and how clean it is. Also have him determine whether it is tile lined and the dimensions of the tile or chimney interior at the top. Likewise on the fireplace end, making sure it was properly built, dampered and has firebrick backing.

If all is a go, you might just need a cleaning and then will be ready for lining. The throat dimensions will determine whether it is practical to insulate the liner.

Be patient, the first year in a house is a learning experience. Often one comes up with a second plan once one has lived with the house through a few seasons. You'll have to run the insert (or freestanding stove) for a season to learn how well the heat migrates and at what temp it keeps various parts of the house. Fans may be needed, but use portable ones at first, until good location(s) are determined. Box fans or 12" table fans are good for this. I used a digital thermometer for rapid readings. It had a remote probe so I could measure high and low temps in our stairwell. This was handy to see the thermal loop in action there.

 

[gpcollen1]

You can do a lot of good with an insert with a liner, helping with the draft. If you have a good blower on the insert and a strategically placed fan or two, you can heat much space. I have one small fan in the room with the insert, just to move air around and another fan (65 cfm) blowing air up the stairs. That alon circulates signifcant heat through rooms / levels. Some may be skeptical but it can be done.

 

[n6crv]

Hello Braeden, just wanted to say nice looking house. I hope those pictures were taken last year. Sure don't want that white stuff this early.
Don

 

[eernest4]

I think someone makes a fireplace insert with 8 inch circular colar that you can put a 8 in flexable duct tube on to pipe the hot air to your furtherest rooms. you could run it under the floor, and then up into your farthest rooms. The insert would need a high capacity blower on the order of 400 cu ft /min for 1 duct or 850 cu ft/min for 2 ducts.

Another option is a hot air add on basement furnace with 2 -8 in air ducts, 850 cu ft fan and limit switch included made by www.englander.com about 1250.oo shipped to your door.
Home depot stocks them ,too.

You would need to have a 6 in flue pipe going to your chimney; maybe use the oil burner chimney and disconnect the oil /money burner. You certainly wont need it with 2 fireplace inserts and a add on hot air basement furnace producing 85,000 btu at 63% efficiency.

Actually, if you buy the hot air furnace , you might not even need the fireplace inserts.

Food 4 thought. look into the basement furnace, then you wont have to worry about heat distribution.

I run a hot air basement stove, old school1960's, about 125,000 btu and a pellet stove 55,000 btu for when I dont feel like babysitting a fire. Have not used the oil burner for a year, still have last years oil in it.

 

[Cath]

Ok, this may be the most stupid question ever ...

Could a person somehow make dry wood more fireplace friendly by dunking in water or hosing down a big stack of it before throwing it in?
...

Braeden,
I have wondered the same thing. I never asked since I knew it would be more efficient to simply mix in "green(er)" wood. However, if you think that your free supply may be all you want or need then why spend the money if you can somehow re-hydrate your wood?

Here are my uneducated thoughts on the matter. If you hose the wood down the water wouldn't penetrate and would simply turn into steam once you had sufficient heat. Keep in mind that freshly cut wood takes about a year or so to season. I think you would need to submerge the wood for a really long time in order for the water to penetrate the way you probably need it to. Otherwise it would dry out again quickly once you removed it from the water.

The good news is that green wood is more readily available and more likely to be free. From what I've read on this forum pine may be an option. If I understand correctly you need a lot of heat to burn pine to avoid creosote buildup. With the dry wood you have that shouldn't be a problem.

Regarding getting the heat up your stairs, where are the stairs in relationship to the fireplace? It looks like you have an open floor plan. However, if the room is long and the stairs are on the other end of the room you will definitely want an insert with a blower. Also, a ceiling fan in the hall at the top of the stairs might help draw the heat up.

Welcome to the forum.
~Cath

 

[Bill]

Your lucky to have access to free dry wood. I get kiln dried Maple chunks and pine 2x8, 2x4, and 1x6 cut offs. They are great for starting fires, burns hot and fast. But it's easy to over-fire your stove with this super dry wood. It's excellent for getting the stove going but I wouldn't recommend it for overnight burns. As recommended above, buy some lightly seasoned firewood and start your fires with the dry stuff and then add firewood for longer and overnight burns. I get pick-up truck loads of the kiln dried wood and believe me it goes. You can usually find firewood for sale but that premium dry wood is hard to come by.

 

[Gooserider]

I think someone makes a fireplace insert with 8 inch circular colar that you can put a 8 in flexable duct tube on to pipe the hot air to your furtherest rooms. you could run it under the floor, and then up into your farthest rooms. The insert would need a high capacity blower on the order of 400 cu ft /min for 1 duct or 850 cu ft/min for 2 ducts.

Another option is a hot air add on basement furnace with 2 -8 in air ducts, 850 cu ft fan and limit switch included made by www.englander.com about 1250.oo shipped to your door.
Home depot stocks them ,too.

You would need to have a 6 in flue pipe going to your chimney; maybe use the oil burner chimney and disconnect the oil /money burner. You certainly wont need it with 2 fireplace inserts and a add on hot air basement furnace producing 85,000 btu at 63% efficiency.

Actually, if you buy the hot air furnace , you might not even need the fireplace inserts.

Food 4 thought. look into the basement furnace, then you wont have to worry about heat distribution.

I run a hot air basement stove, old school1960's, about 125,000 btu and a pellet stove 55,000 btu for when I dont feel like babysitting a fire. Have not used the oil burner for a year, still have last years oil in it.

Eernest, I don't believe you will find that kind of vent in an insert. It would be next to impossible to do since an insert must be placed INSIDE an existing firebox, so there would be no way to get the extra duct out. However, there are pre-fabricated Z-C fireplace units with that sort of extra ductwork so you aren't totally wrong. The problem is that it would be a really major task, and not feasible in this setup.

The addon furnace might be a choice though.

Gooserider

 

[eernest4]

If your willing 2 cut 4x12 inch holes through the ceilings and the floors you can buy a fan forced
heat register duct starting as low as 45.oo for a weak fan & up to 400.oo for the high cu/ft/min fans, just 2 let u know whats available. u can get by with65 cu ft /min probably 45-$55.oo for your poweried hot air register and use gravity feed for your cold air return register.

Register face plates start at 12 -$38 depending on how fancy u want it looking.

There probably a space between cieling downstairs and floor upstairs, so you need 2 or 3 ft
of conecting duct work.

I read somebody say that a bathroom cieling fan work good in this application and they start@
$28.oo
Just sugestions 4 u 2 look in2.

sorry,
2 much text mesageing :coolsmile:

 

[eernest4]

concerning your dry wood question, If you dunk the wood in a wheelbarrow full of water, just one dunk 30 second, the wood adsorbs a lot of moistue and takes 2 or 3 months if not longer,to dry out so that it burns properly.

If you feel that you must wet your wood, i would only dip the tips, 1/2 inch only and that would be enough to drop your fire temp by 250 degrees, i bet but not really sure.

ALSO MAKE YOUR STOVE PRONE TO CRESOLE BUILD UP and chimney fires.
who touched that cap lock key?

May be way better to just mix in a small bit of green wood or create your own green wood by wetting a few of your dry pieces, just a little bit of wet more like...... lightly damp.

A little bit of water makes a lot of steam and really cools off your fire.

Try this test proceedure & it will help you know how your stove/fireplace insert responds.

If you can get some kind of magnetic stack thermometer or a probe thermometer for smoke stack tempuratures, they sell them at stove stores and make a medium sized fire with your
dry wood, say 1/3 capacity of firebox and get the fire setteled down 300 to 500 deg stack temp.
then try putting in 1 log that you have wetted down and see how much it drops the fire temp.
write down in your experiment notebook,(pocket notebook)how much water you pored on the log & the approx size of the log. or if you dipped the end of the log in a bucket of water, how
far you immersed each end into water.

I said logs but I meant split logs or in your case precut lumber .

use same size pieces of wood with different amounts of water.

remember that wood is really a hard sponge when it comes to water, use spairingly,

and that water & steam & cold running temps make creasole which makes chimney fires,
so you are doing a balancing act here and need to know what you are about in an intellegrnt manner.


P.S. I just get back from gear section of forum where they say in moisture meter thread
that if wood contain more than 20% moisture it is considered unseasoned and should not be burnt and then another fellow tell of how he take moistue content on outside bark of log of 10%,
then he split the log and take reading of core of log at 35% which was the top end of the meter scale and he wished that the meter could read higher to find out just how moist the core really was.

So a lot of moisure resides in the core of the log even when the outside looks and feels dry.

 

[Gooserider]

If your willing 2 cut 4x12 inch holes through the ceilings and the floors you can buy a fan forced
heat register duct starting as low as 45.oo for a weak fan & up to 400.oo for the high cu/ft/min fans, just 2 let u know whats available. u can get by with65 cu ft /min probably 45-$55.oo for your poweried hot air register and use gravity feed for your cold air return register.

Register face plates start at 12 -$38 depending on how fancy u want it looking.

There probably a space between cieling downstairs and floor upstairs, so you need 2 or 3 ft
of conecting duct work.

I read somebody say that a bathroom cieling fan work good in this application and they start@
$28.oo
Just sugestions 4 u 2 look in2.

sorry,
2 much text mesageing :coolsmile:

Eernest, if you do a search, you will find LOTS of discussion on the subject of cutting holes in floors / walls / ceilings - with the conclusion that it may be against most codes, it is debatable as to whether it will work, and that it is definitely a LIFE SAFETY DANGER. In other words it's a really bad idea, even if we did used to do that sort of thing. We know much more now about how to build homes safely than we used to, and are much more careful about fire and toxic fume containment than we used to be. Cutting holes in your house can contribute to the spread of fire and / or toxic fumes in the event of a disaster, DRASTICALLY cutting down on the time that you and your family need to escape. It is an emphatically not reccomended way to do things.

Gooserider