Hello From French Farmland

[ctreitzell]

When I say insulated by hand, I mean under the tape where the elbow is connected to the Y…there is a Poulait brand vitreous reducer which adapts from 125mm to 130mm which has a nice tight fit into the elbow and from the Y and keeps the female ends pointing downward.

 

[weee123]

hmmm, thanks @weee123 you've helped me with search criteria

I was unable to find this spiral ducting online before

so this afternoon I found:
https://www.spiralmfg.com/high-pressure-dual-wall-insulated-spiral-pipe/

If that is what you used, that most definitely is not for use in any type of chimney application. That is for supply and return duct in a forced air system. Especially if you have the perf metal on the inside like it can come with in that link you sent. That insulation is meant more for an acoustical lining but also doubles as insulation to keep the supply/return from sweating.

 

[ctreitzell]

A

If that is what you used, that most definitely is not for use in any type of chimney application. That is for supply and return duct in a forced air system. Especially if you have the perf metal on the inside like it can come with in that link you sent. That insulation is meant more for an acoustical lining but also doubles as insulation to keep the supply/return from sweating.

Again, I did not install this spiral conduit. One of the previous owners who renovated this barn installed the Esse stove and flue.

Essentially it was the existing chimney when I bought the place as I have described in this thread. I’ve simply removed the Esse stove and cast iron that was the previous install and connected better flue duct into the existing exterior dual wall and installed a higher efficiency stove. I did install gallows brackets to better support the 5 meter spiral section and Y.

That owner who renovated this barn I live in had a shop fitting business. This renovation was clearly done by shop-fitters…and I would assume this spiral duct section was related to the shop fitters who I can also assume would have been installing this type of spiral duct in shops. I have no idea if the interior pipe is perforated.

I’m not saying this flue install is good or legal which it clearly is not. I’m getting prepared to figure out a better system…that’s why I’m here on this forum. I’m happy to say y’all are right and I’m wrong.

Fact is this flue has been installed at this property for something like 40 years…it does “work” but it is not properly done. If I fix it in place, well, we need to renovate this entire barn. The position of the wood burning heater will likely be somewhere else entirely. And I’m starting from scratch moving stairwells and plumbing. We are not quite ready to do that yet.

I’m hoping to glean some expert knowledge being on this forum, because my local “tradesmen” are notorious for being unable to produce quality work. Simply reviewing the advice of the outlets local to me have provided me should be adequate to realize they aren’t up to the task.

Here’s what I know from modern life, if you need something done, you better be an expert in the field and be able to explain to whatever service provider you hire how they should carry out their job. This is occurring everywhere IME. So, here I am, showing my blemishes trying to learn

So, the only problems I’ve had so far are as @begreen said
-Slow smoky start no draw due to horizontal run
-once fire’s burning, the draw is powerful and eats fuel fast

Also that powerful draw is gonna empty the hot air fast…I don’t have a rain cap either…certainly also having a negative effect…so restarts on choked coals will fill the house with smoke

I’m looking to create a plan for a new install to abandon and demolish this current one

 

[weee123]

So, where I would start would be to source some proper class A chimney pipe rated for solid fuel appliances and replace that current flue. It wouldn’t require moving the stove at all, just to replace that section of chimney.

 

[begreen]

So, where I would start would be to source some proper class A chimney pipe rated for solid fuel appliances and replace that current flue. It wouldn’t require moving the stove at all, just to replace that section of chimney.

Investing in new chimney pipe at this point will be expensive, especially if only temporary. It sounds like the current setup is temporary. Replacing and relocating the stove could have several advantages. The stove can be more centrally located, heating more of the barn/house. It could potentially be top-vented, ideally straight-up through the structure and vented out the roof. This would eliminate the ~4' horizontal run right out of the stove. A larger firebox stove with a longer burn will be more practical and comfortable.

The place sounds like a grand project on a beer budget. Lots of work and sweat equity.

 

[weee123]

Investing in new chimney pipe at this point will be expensive, especially if only temporary. It sounds like the current setup is temporary. Replacing and relocating the stove could have several advantages. The stove can be more centrally located, heating more of the barn/house. It could potentially be top-vented, ideally straight-up through the structure and vented out the roof. This would eliminate the ~4' horizontal run right out of the stove. A larger firebox stove with a longer burn will be more practical and comfortable.

The place sounds like a grand project on a beer budget. Lots of work and sweat equity.

Ahhh I missed the fact that it was temporary. I figured it was staying in the same spot.

 

[ctreitzell]

Investing in new chimney pipe at this point will be expensive, especially if only temporary. It sounds like the current setup is temporary. Replacing and relocating the stove could have several advantages. The stove can be more centrally located, heating more of the barn/house. It could potentially be top-vented, ideally straight-up through the structure and vented out the roof. This would eliminate the ~4' horizontal run right out of the stove. A larger firebox stove with a longer burn will be more practical and comfortable.

The place sounds like a grand project on a beer budget. Lots of work and sweat equity.

thanks, yes, you fully understand my situation

these points you cover are exactly the conversation I just had with my missus...then I built a fire...

this is a HUGE building; roughly 300sq meter footprint on 2 levels

my current Panadero could be utilized elsewhere in the building...specing the best flue size to buy is my need to understand

It's a MASSIVE project and that's only half of it...I'm currently demoing the massive barn next door

I should say; property values here are awful. Investing here is only a quality of life endeavor
might as well take the money and start fires with it...I'd need a better draw for that ;-P

 

[ctreitzell]

Ahhh I missed the fact that it was temporary. I figured it was staying in the same spot.

I write a lot...maybe you skimmed and looked at the pics

 

[ctreitzell]

what I hadn't realized until you point it out is the heat gets sucked out fast with the 9-10 meter rise...so if enough heat isn't generated in the firebox...BANG, the flue is too cold and a slow, smoky restart will just smoke. at the stove...again, I'm not sure a vertical will solve the issue...clearly a suitable draw needs to be achieved...which I reckon's gonna be expensive

So I suppose increasing the flue diameter will decrease the draw over such a high rise...180mm dbl wall is very, very expensive

Ha! I was just spit-balling on flue size here
well, now I've done the calculations for flue size and 180mm is the result. This current flue goes from 125mm to 130mm, which is why it sounds like a massive vacuum cleaner when I open the door

so if I acquire a stove with a larger firebox, I'll require an even larger flue?

I thought 225 was the largest available...I'll have to look

 

[ctreitzell]

You could use a flue damper to tame that draft. AKA a key damper. My local hardware store carries them from 8'' down to 3''.


CAD ..... cardboard assisted design.

I'm gonna educate myself on dampers asap...seems like a damper would increase the draft...maybe it functions both ways depending upon how open it is? I do not currently posses such knowledge I certainly have scope to improve my current situation with replacing this silly Y I have.

I did use CAD (cardboard) when I installed this Panadero Albatross last year; certainly to lay out the flue location...I should think a true mock would be more useful...nevertheless, we gotta be good at moving heavy items with simple tools in this wood stove positioning realm

 

[all night moe]

seems like a damper would increase the draft.

A key damper will decrease an over drafting flue. If your flue is over drafting, you could regulate the pull of air with one. They can be partially closed, closed, or left wide open. When fully closed, there is enough of a gap between damper and flue to still promote some draft. There are also a couple holes in the damper plate for this reason too.

 

[bigealta]

So did the Esse with the original set up burn fine, with no start up smoke and good burns?

 

[ctreitzell]

So did the Esse with the original set up burn fine, with no start up smoke and good burns?

did I not say? hmmm...zero air intake control so it blasted thru wood...eat up a cord a week (not really, but...highly inefficient)

it smoked...I used a hairdryer inside the stove cuz there was access to the flue opening
the Panadero baffle blocks access to the flue

the Panadero is in another league of efficiency
heats well...can choke embers to last for many hours

 

[bigealta]

Maybe i missed it but did you consider a damper behind your stove? It looks like there is room?

 

[bigealta]

Also have u tried preheating flue by using hairdryer, candles, torch, etc on horizontal pipe behind stove vs the exterior pipe?

 

[ctreitzell]

hmmm...I think EcoDesign and DEFRA regs have outlawed dampers in the EU
I find only DuraVent for sale in USA
USA has EPA regs
EU has EcoDesign and DEFRA

EcoDesign comment in the Panadero manual reads:
"The ventilation opening must never be obstructed."
I should think that includes dampers.

DEFRA rating in one part of the regulation wants stoves to not be allowed to smolder as smoldering equals low air quality. A DEFRA rated stove stipulates that a wood burner should not be allowed to "slumber burn" which is what I've been doing choking the embers and re-opening the air to avoid cold starts. OK, I'll do my bit and not do that anymore...seems dangerous in more than one way.

this is new guidance from 2022 and in continuous development.

 

[begreen]

It's been pretty much the same here for over 30 yrs. DEFRA is following EPA guidance. All EPA stoves admit some air to avoid smoldering the fire. Interesting to note that although these stoves perform well an unanticipated consequence of the uniform testing standard is that few companies had a plan for the opposite of weak draft, too strong draft. Some of the easier breathing stove were hard to stop overfiring when the draft strength was very high. Now, we are starting to see in recent manuals the recommendation for using a draft damper in these conditions. Note that a draft damper by design does not restrict 100%. It always allows at least 25% passage even when closed.

 

[Hoytman]

A key damper will decrease an over drafting flue. If your flue is over drafting, you could regulate the pull of air with one. They can be partially closed, closed, or left wide open. When fully closed, there is enough of a gap between damper and flue to still promote some draft. There are also a couple holes in the damper plate for this reason too.

Great post with some important information.

You bring up a good point; you want a manual pipe damper (key damper) that has holes in it and one that may also NOT fit totally tight in the stove pipe.

You do NOT want to install a solid damper in the pipe….as some are still being sold that ar a solid (no holes) design, and some fit tight as well.

Some people refer to stove controls as “dampers”, and I feel this is a mistake although technically correct. Why I feel it is a mistake is because they function differently than a pipe damper…again technically they serve the sale function, but as things start to get hot things change…their roles change….they don’t serve the same purpose.

It is possible to have stove air intakes fully open and a pipe damper fully shut.

Someone mentioned chimney caps, and not having one. My chimney hasn’t had one in almost 70 years. Do I think there are benefits to not using them? Absolutely! Do I think chimney caps are a bad thing? Absolutely not!

Today the chimney cap is mostly talked about to keep water intrusion out, which is a great thing, but I’ve read some really old publications that mentioned their use as down-draft reducers as their first and foremost place in the chimney system.

 

[ctreitzell]

Someone mentioned chimney caps, and not having one. My chimney hasn’t had one in almost 70 years. Do I think there are benefits to not using them? Absolutely! Do I think chimney caps are a bad thing? Absolutely not!

Today the chimney cap is mostly talked about to keep water intrusion out, which is a great thing, but I’ve read some really old publications that mentioned their use as down-draft reducers as their first and foremost place in the chimney system.

that would be me

there are many more more important issues with my temp install than the cap

sounds like what you describe could help diminish a little bit the strong draft on my flue

again, I don't find any dampers offered at Convesa EU or other EU manufacturers

 

[ctreitzell]

It's been pretty much the same here for over 30 yrs. DEFRA is following EPA guidance. All EPA stoves admit some air to avoid smoldering the fire. Interesting to note that although these stoves perform well an unanticipated consequence of the uniform testing standard is that few companies had a plan for the opposite of weak draft, too strong draft. Some of the easier breathing stove were hard to stop overfiring when the draft strength was very high. Now, we are starting to see in recent manuals the recommendation for using a draft damper in these conditions. Note that a draft damper by design does not restrict 100%. It always allows at least 25% passage even when closed.

interesting...I don't find guidance on this in the Panadero manual...but, in use, I had wondered why the fire embers would continue to smolder when the intake is completely closed

frankly, I find a great deal of lacking info on these solid fuel heaters in the literature supplied by the manufacturers...I've complained about that plenty

and again, I find no dampers for sale in the EU compatible with the Convesa flue we have purchased

anyway, surely more info will reveal itself as time cracks on

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Most are cast iron. A grinder could bring a larger one down to size pretty quickly!

 

[ctreitzell]

Maybe i missed it but did you consider a damper behind your stove? It looks like there is room?

I don't see how I'd get a damper behind the stove on the interior of the room. I'd have to increase the size of the hearth stone (which is cement). The feet of the stove sit in slots I cut into the hearth "stone"s. To move the stove a little bit would make a mess out of those slots

I have been searching and do not find a damper available in the EU...I just must be missing something in my search criteria, but I find nothing suitable for high heat wood burning. I'm not happy to install single wall inside on this horizontal run...we tried that (photos above) and it was just far to sketchy compared with the reducer straight from single to dual wall flue.

I do have space for a damper outside if I replace that cleanout Y with new dual wall...I just can't find a compatible damper in any EU or UK online shop so far.

Thanks for suggesting it!

 

[ctreitzell]

Also have u tried preheating flue by using hairdryer, candles, torch, etc on horizontal pipe behind stove vs the exterior pipe?

There is no access to the flue pipe from inside the stove; the baffle blocks the flue entry because, by design, the baffle trains the flames forward to clean the window.

Heating the flue from outside works fine. My friend, who I spent new year's eve with , suggests burning a newspaper to heat the flue faster because "it's a flame" and a hair dryer is not. I use a pretty low quality hair dryer and pre-heat for 10 min to assure draft. Lighting a newspaper outside would be total PITA! Hairdryer turns on and runs easily and does work.

 

[ctreitzell]

...Now, we are starting to see in recent manuals the recommendation for using a draft damper in these conditions.

Well, I'll be dipped in...!

Just today I see on the Panadero web site:

"DRAUGHT REGULATOR

We recommend installing the first pipe with a draught regulator, so that the wood is not consumed so quickly. This way, we heat the room efficiently and save money."

uh, okay, this is news to me! That statement wasn't on the Panadero site before Jan 1, 2024!
Obviously my install of my cheap Delice is wrong as shown in their diagram...nonetheless, the firebox is far too small for my needs...

In the meantime, where can I buy one of these "draught regulators" that will work with my stove? Panadero certainly didn't post a link on their site!

These manufacturers are messing around, man!

 

[begreen]

Is that single or double wall stove pipe connecting to the chimney pipe? If single-wall, most good hardware stores have draft regulators. If double-walled, the shaft of the regulator needs to be a bit longer to fit the thicker walls. In that case the stove pipe manufacturer can be the best source sometimes.