hello questions bout china wood stoves.

[leoibb]

i have owned a china wood stove for 3 years now, and they seem to be frowned upon? i am curious as to why, what are the differences?
spent a long time going round stove shops on my hands and knees in uk stoves and i struggle seeing any difference. just wanderin , thiner cast? or what?
I did notice the baffle plate started to buckle , and the baffle plate isnt sealed tight, it has an inch gap either side, that is something i found different to uk stoves. so as i needed a baffle plate i cut some steel and fitted it tight and sealed it with fire cement, i have to say it does burn a lot longer and the secondery burn is working far better..
apart from that little change, i see no difference in uk spec or these that come in on a boat/ any thoughts?

 

[Dieselhead]

Is anything made in china of any quality? seems like anything made in that country is junk, and line the shelves of stores like walmart and target. but today is a throw away society so to most it does not matter.....

 

[leoibb]

well i dont know, but it seems other countries are way ahead of the uk with products , ive seen this in many items that come from distant places.

 

[Fsappo]

If you want to send your money to another country, any country its up to you. I try not to, but I own laptops and tvs and a Honda. So, I make an effort to buy domestic. If I was filthy rich, I guess I would be able to try harder.

 

[Jags]

Chinese cast stoves are notoriously sloppy construction. Ill fitting pieces. Bad finished edges. Thin casts, etc. Not all, by any means, but many. Their quality control is horrible in my opinion. Does that mean that they can't produce a good product - no. Does that mean that they will have a higher ratio of failure - maybe.

If I am gonna have a 1100 degree (F) fire, inside of a box, in my home, it won't be in the form of a product that makes me question the quality.

I am not knocking your stove. If you are happy and safe - all is well, but it probably wouldn't happen (without due diligence) in my house.

 

[leoibb]

hello what is the standard thickness of cast?

 

[Jags]

hello what is the standard thickness of cast?

Not sure of a standard thickness, but if you want an eye opener, compare a chinese cast stove with a similar sized stove from a US plant. Notice the weight. :gulp:

EDIT: IN ALL FAIRNESS - China is responsible for many of the cast panels for other brands of stoves. These casts are spec'd by the purchasing company. I am referring to an all Chinese stove.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

hello what is the standard thickness of cast?

Not sure of a standard thickness, but if you want an eye opener, compare a chinese cast stove with a similar sized stove from a US plant. Notice the weight. :gulp:

EDIT: IN ALL FAIRNESS - China is responsible for many of the cast panels for other brands of stoves. These casts are spec'd by the purchasing company. I am referring to an all Chinese stove.

They have to build them lighter in China, the kids that are building them could never lift those heavy North American stoves. :roll:

 

[Jags]

They have to build them lighter in China, the kids that are building them could never lift those heavy North American stoves. :roll:

Yeah, but those tiny little fingers can handle the small fasteners soooo much better.

 

[cptoneleg]

And then they will use " lead paint" :zip:

 

[Fsappo]

heyro

 

[leoibb]

well i was kinda hopin for some decent answers and facts but instead i hear the common answers regarding products made abroad, without any evidence to support the answers.
i can get jiberish replies off my wife and friends.
is there a set thickness of cast tro be used in some form of regulation?
if products from china are poor, why do we send most things to get made there?
Ya can pay over a 100 pound for a stove in this country, same thing over there is 300 pounds, i dont think its is always poor quality. maybe they dont get paid as much, maybe they have lot less taxes, maybe our country is just a rip of place..

 

[webbie]

A lot of sour grapes here.
I really doubt anyone can claim their Flat Screen TV's, iphone and ipads are made cheaply. Stuff made in China can be as good, or better, than stuff made anywhere in the world. Period.

This may have not been as true 15 or 20 years ago. But today it is. Many American and European manufacturers have set up plants there and shipped modern equipment AND engineers.

I think some people are about a decade behind the times.
Oh, I think MANY of the castings of major stove makers...like Lopi, Avalon, Quad and many others - as well as many complete cast and steel stoves, are made there.

C'mon, be real. If you want more American manufacturing, talk to your elected representatives about trade policy. But don't make up stories about low quality, because it isn't true any more.

Some engineers I know who do a lot of work there told me a little story. They said if you went back to the site of a little low quality foundry which was making "back yard" castings in 2004, you were likely to find a major brand new factory complex on the same site today!

 

[webbie]

hello what is the standard thickness of cast?

Stove plate is usually about 1/4" in our terms - although this is not an indication of quality. In fact, "thin wall" castings are often harder to make, so part of the reason for the thick castings is/was lack of proper equipment, QC and chemistry. In a basic sense, I think anything 3/16" or thicker is fine for stoves, although the actual design of the casting is important. Large flat castings are subject to too many stresses, while castings with ribs, bends, etc. can hold up better.

 

[Jags]

i can get jiberish replies off my wife and friends.

Refusing to reply to that. >:-(

 

[cptoneleg]

At one time I really tried to just buy locally; in 1984 I had a new Harley and the speedometer broke took it off and inside sure (made in Japan) and look at me now warming my house with a Jotul.

 

[Dakotas Dad]

well i was kinda hopin for some decent answers and facts but instead i hear the common answers regarding products made abroad, without any evidence to support the answers.
i can get jiberish replies off my wife and friends.

Unfortunately, you are asking a question that has as much opinion to it as fact, so you will get answered accordingly..

Here is what I know.. a friend looked at lots and lots of cast stoves last fall.. made all over the world. I went with her. In my mind, when it comes to a wood stove, mass is important. The, shall we say, "not name brand" stoves all had a lot LESS mass.. pound to dollar they cost about the same. So you could buy a stove from a non name brand for less money, but you got less stove. I also thought the quality of the finish and casting on the name brand stoves was better across the board. I didn't drill any holes and mic the wall thickness, but, it stands to reason that a cast stove that weighs half to three quarters as much as another, is less stove.

The Chinese are also notorious for copyright infringement and shady economic dealings and handling of foreign investments. Many people don't like the idea that a country, as a federally sanctioned process, will violate international trade, academic and intellectual rights. I personally work for a company that is having problems with HUGE patent infringement problems in China, to the point that the plant is an EXACT copy of ours, down to the parking spaces and landscaping. The product however, due to lack of QC and material, is far inferior to ours.. but an exact "physical" copy. We get lots of calls, then have to prove that the defective product isn't ours.. even though it has our name on it.

Many foreign companies have set up factories in economic free zones inside China, only to have the government come in a couple years later and "take over" the company.

 

[DanCorcoran]

"The Chinese are also notorious for copyright infringement and shady economic dealings and handling of foreign investments. Many people don’t like the idea that a country, as a federally sanctioned process, will violate international trade, academic and intellectual rights."

Not sure why, but something about your reply made me think of the Bureau of Indian Affairs' handling of royalty payments for natural resources mined on tribal lands.

 

[webbie]

At one time I really tried to just buy locally; in 1984 I had a new Harley and the speedometer broke took it off and inside sure (made in Japan) and look at me now warming my house with a Jotul.

And the Jotul might be made here - they use parts from here and Norway. In fact, they make some castings at Vermont Castings foundry!
They do a LOT of fabrication and assembly in Maine.

You can't win....or maybe you always win.
There has been a move back toward some manufacturing here as China has matured. The new fancy foundry built in the place of that old backyard setup does not take on the small jobs any longer. They are more likely to be companies like the one mentioned in this Press Release:
http://www.disagroup.com/sites/disa...ents/news/winhere_in_china_signs_disamat.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISAMATIC
"In such automatic production lines there is no need of any human manual labor until the castings are completely finished and ready for dispatch."

Disa, BTW, is the inventor and producer and the best foundry molding machines in the world. Vermont Castings has one....and that is largely what put them head and shoulders above other producers early on. One machine can output VAST amounts of castings! The quality is amazing. Those Danes came up with a fine machine....

To further answer the original question, when it comes to Chinese made products (as with many others) design and engineering are very important and come before the actual manufacturing. With computer-aided design and manufacturing, modern QC, etc. there is no reason that their manufacturing can not be totally world class (as it is with the products mentioned).

Iron casting is not exactly rocket science. The Chinese were doing it when it was a gleam in the eye of Europeans.

 

[webbie]

The Chinese are also notorious for copyright infringement and shady economic dealings and handling of foreign investments. Many people don't like the idea that a country, as a federally sanctioned process, will violate international trade, academic and intellectual rights. I personally work for a company that is having problems with HUGE patent infringement problems in China, to the point that the plant is an EXACT copy of ours, down to the parking spaces and landscaping. The product however, due to lack of QC and material, is far inferior to ours.. but an exact "physical" copy. We get lots of calls, then have to prove that the defective product isn't ours.. even though it has our name on it.

Many foreign companies have set up factories in economic free zones inside China, only to have the government come in a couple years later and "take over" the company.

This is no doubt true in many instances, but getting less and less so as actual American, European and Asian companies are setting up their own shops or partnerships there.

For instance, back in the early days of stoves there were LOTS of taiwan and chinese made stoves of dubious quality. They got sued out of business by VC and Jotul, and the next time they came back they had partnerships with American companies and higher quality parts and enameling.

As far as getting screwed - I only have a bit of experience in Chinese manufacturing...made a couple chimney products I invented over there. In my short time dealing with those, I got screwed ROYALLY by at least two American companies and had very honorable dealing with a Chinese firm who solicited business from me. One of the American companies who disappointed me has a long record of "stealing" Intellectual Property from the small fella.

What I am saying is that people are good and bad everywhere...let the buyer and beware no matter what!

 

[leoibb]

appreciate all the replies that has come on, thankyou very much.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

well i was kinda hopin for some decent answers and facts but instead i hear the common answers regarding products made abroad, without any evidence to support the answers.
i can get jiberish replies off my wife and friends.
is there a set thickness of cast tro be used in some form of regulation?
if products from china are poor, why do we send most things to get made there?
Ya can pay over a 100 pound for a stove in this country, same thing over there is 300 pounds, i dont think its is always poor quality. maybe they dont get paid as much, maybe they have lot less taxes, maybe our country is just a rip of place..

Nobody said they were ALL bad quality.

There was a particular Chinese brand that copied designs of other popular brands. The were notoriously crappy and the market was flooded with them, so a lot of popular opinion comes from that. They still pop up from time to time, and when you put them next to the brand name- they just look plain unsafe. Seams you could see fire through, ill fits- just terrible.

 

[leoibb]

I think you came on here expecting to get crap and are over-reacting.?????????
inferno: i came on here looking to settle my curiosity, and there has been some good descriptive answers from people who know that market. so my curiosity is settled,

 

[webbie]

Leo, thanks for your post. I think there is some good info on this thread.
I'm going to close it after I add some trivia.

An interesting part of history is that most of the advancements and science in modern Iron Casting come from the UK.
This started with Abraham Darby and his advances on the Severn River......and your country was the envy of the world in that regard for a LONG time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Darby_III

These Englishmen started the modern Industrial Revolution and were far ahead of all the other Europeans and of America.

But we've come full circle now and technology is easily transfered all over the world.

Imagine, though, the technology to build this bridge in the 1700's! My daughter visited it when she was over there and took a picture for us (not the pic below)!

The same company still makes stoves of famous quality - used by royalty and chefs - the AGA and Rayburn cookstoves.
They also exported wood and coal stoves to the USA for many years in the 1980's.

http://www.aga-ranges.com/aga/history.asp