Help....Hearthstone Heritage, Jotul 500 Oslo or Fireplace Insert?

[HearthKB]

Hi Everyone!!

Let me start out by saying. since I'm new to wood stoves ANY help will be greatly appreciated!

I live on Long Island, NY and just checked the oil prices. $4.75 per Gallon!! I can't go through another season at these prices so I've decided to purchase a wood burning stove to heat the downstairs of my home. Downstairs is about 1,600 sq ft. Total sq. ft of the home is about 2,200. The downstairs has a pretty open floor plan from the den to dining room to kitchen to living room. The kids play room and my office is towards the back of the house. Both have doors that I will keep open, hoping the heat will reach these rooms. I have a fireplace in my living room which I never use because of its inefficiency.

I went to two wood stove places and got different opinions (of course).
1) One place said to go with the Hearthstone Heritage because of its ability to heat for up to 12 hours. Plus it has a nice even heat distribution. The 12 hour heat time has me interested because I leave the house for work at 5:00am and don't return till about 6:00pm. There is usually someone home who can feed the stove but just in case they aren't, I would like it to burn as long as possible. The Heritage will cost about $5,000 which includes installation, piping materials, hearthpad etc.

2) The second place I went to suggested the Jotul Oslo or Avalon Arbor. Both seem to be nice stoves with high outputs and long heat times. But... they don't retain the heat like a soapstone stove will. The Jotul will cost $4,700 installed and Avalon will be about $5,000.

Both places said I can heat my home this winter with four cords which will cost around $800. Compare that to three $1,200 oil tank fill ups and you'll see my urgency to purchase a wood burning stove!

After coming home and reading the brochures, I noticed that they have fireplace inserts too. I was wondering if this application would be better for me instead of purchasing a free standing stove?

Which of the stoves mentioned above are good for my application?


I'm sorry for the long post but I'm trying to supply you with as much info as possible to make it easier for you to answer my questions. Thanks again!!


-Kevin-

 

[bluefrier]

All of the stoves you mentioned are all good stoves.
Soapstone will hold heat longer than a cast iron or steel but they take longer to get hot.
A steel/cast iron stove is good for taking the chill off the room quick.
Don't compare stoves by manufacturers claim of burn time or btu output instead use the firebox capacity and style design you like.
Most newer epa stoves have about the same efficiency rating.

Good luck and welcome to hearth.com

 

[MALogger]

For a good comparison you should raise your wood cost as well. 4 cords for $800. I don't live on Long Island but I do know what wood is going for in my area. I would think it would be $300 - $350 on Long Island per cord at least. Check with some local firewood dealers not a stove shop for wood prices.

Craig

 

[HearthKB]

For a good comparison you should raise your wood cost as well. 4 cords for $800. I don't live on Long Island but I do know what wood is going for in my area. I would think it would be $300 - $350 on Long Island per cord at least. Check with some local firewood dealers not a stove shop for wood prices.

Craig

Hmmm... I asked the wood stove place where to get good wood and they suggested two guys that are selling cords for between $200-$225. I'll call them to make sure how much it costs. Thanks.

 

[Catskill]

Let me throw this out there....

Burning wood for heat is a lot of work, you'd better be ready for it. If you ask most of the people here you'll find that these people consider wood burning a "life style" choice meaning they simple love to do it regardless and consider it a labor of love.

 

[HearthKB]

Let me throw this out there....

If you're trying to save money by buying a $5000 stove and paying $200 a cord your return on investment will take quite some time not to mention the added work. The real saving comes into play when you can produce your own fuel. If you're into scrounging or making friends with a tree guy (like me) your saving will be much higher. The down side to making your own wood are the cost of the tools (saw & splitter) not to mention the work. If you ask most of the people here you'll find that these people consider wood burning a "life style" choice meaning they simple love to do it regardless. Burning wood for heat is a lot of work, you'll see (but we love it).

I realize burning wood is a lot of work. But... I would rather put in some effort to save a boat load of money in heating bills each year.

How can you say that my return on investment will take a long time?

I'm looking at it this way. I fill up my oil tank three times each season. Right now, each fill up will cost around $1,200. 3x1,200=$3,600. If I purchase four cords of wood for $1,000, this should last me a whole season.

So my investment this season will be around $6,000 ($5,000 stove and $1,000 wood) which is a lot. But if you subtract the three oil drops of $3,600 I would have been purchasing. My cost for this season will be $2,400. They way I look at it is the stove should pay for itself after the first 1 1/2 to 2 years. After that, I will be saving at least $3,000 each year on my heating costs. Who knows what the price of oil will be next season. It might cost me $1,300 per fill up or more!

Sure... it will be a lot more effort than just adjusting the thermostat but the money savings in the end will be worth it. Plus, I HATE how the oil companies have me by the balls. When I moved into my house in 2000 I was paying $1.29 per gallon. Now its almost $5.00! The oil companies are getting rich off of me and I won't take it anymore


-Kevin-

 

[eightpilot]

You will have to spend a little money this year but after that you will be golden. I am in the same situation up here in Northern WI with propane. 3$ a gallon and its not even winter. I went with the oslo and from the research I have done it seemed to be the best bang for the buck. I like the look of soapstone but i felt that the cast iron would be a little more durable if you accidently over fired it. Up here wood is about $70/cord delivered in 100" logs. I have to cut and split the wood but I like to do that anyway so I can choose the lenght to fit my stove. I don't think you can go wrong with any freestandidng stove and from what I have read they put out a little more heat then an insert. 8

 

[myzamboni]

For a good comparison you should raise your wood cost as well. 4 cords for $800. I don't live on Long Island but I do know what wood is going for in my area. I would think it would be $300 - $350 on Long Island per cord at least. Check with some local firewood dealers not a stove shop for wood prices.

Craig

Hmmm... I asked the wood stove place where to get good wood and they suggested two guys that are selling cords for between $200-$225. I'll call them to make sure how much it costs. Thanks.

I can almost guarantee that the $200-$225/cord wood is green and will not burn very nicely this winter. If you don't already have seasoned wood for this winter, it is going to be frustrating for you.

Good luck. What everyone else is saying is dead on. Out west we heat with natural gas, so I am not saving much by burning wood . . . I just love the whole process (scrounging, cutting, splitting, stacking, burning)

 

[Catskill]

I just wanted to let you know about the amount of work involved. The economics seem self explanatory.

 

[webbie]

There are a lot of variables with wood, and using simple formula like $1000 worth of wood = $3600 worth of oil could be misleading.

We could start with the fact that most cords are "short" (less than a cord)...then there are the wood species, some have much less (as little as 1/2) the heating value of others.

Then we have to figure in the efficiency of the appliance - and a fireplace insert in an exterior fireplace can lose heat to the outside - so you certainly can't use 70 or 75% total efficiencies.....

I see too many cases of folks using the best possible scenarios for figuring payback. Optimism is a good thing, but reality often comes back to roost.

For a more accurate figure - using mixed hardwoods (not the best, but not the worst), I would say that a cord of wood would produce the heat of 150 gallons of oil. That means $600 worth of oil (at $4) equals 250 worth of wood (at 250 a cord).....sure, oil could go higher, wood could go lower, etc. - but those are prudent figures.

In fact, if I were figuring a conservative payback, I would take (in this case)....a savings of 50%.

But there are still lots of other variables. Most people, unless they have a central wood unit, still need their oil unit to fire for months in the shoulder season....and then often for domestic hot water also (all season).

So in reality, if you burn 4 cords of well seasoned wood in an efficient setup, you should save $1000 a year. Not small potatoes.....but you will be moving 8 tons of material and dealing with the usual learning curves and issues.

There really is no such thing as a payback...you are simply working more and becoming part of the process of heating your house.

 

[SteveT]

How can you say that my return on investment will take a long time?

You will not replace $3600 worth of oil with four cords of wood. At your figure ($4.75/gallon) you use about 750 gallons of oil; to replace that will take at least five cords. And -- very important -- that is five FULL cords of DRY hardwood. As another poster indicated that will probably be about $300/cord (it costs that here in Massachusetts; I can't imagine Long Island is much less).

So you would save $2100 per year if you could replace 100% of your oil usage.

But you will still have some oil consumption for hot water and time away from the house. So figure four cords of wood plus 150 gallons of oil to get you through the season. At current prices the total cost will be about $1925. Add $175 for chimney sweep, fire starters and whatever and you will save $1500 per year for a $5K investment. So the payback will be more than three years. Not bad but it is not a quick as you might think.

As a final thought, if you want to take the plunge this year and are not 100% certain that your wood supplier will actually deliver seasoned wood, you should consider some sort of a biomass product. They are more expensive than cordwood on a BTU per dollar basis but they are a consistent product. And still less costly than oil.

 

[HearthKB]

Thanks for all of your responses!!

I must say.... There is a lot more involved than the wood stove dealer lead me to believe. I this case, its obvious that 1+1 does not equal 2.

I honestly thought that I could save a lot of money each year by switching to wood heat. I'm still convinced that I can but I have to make sure all of the variables are in place. Especially whether or not I can get seasoned wood this season at a good price. I'm going to call around tomorrow to see what I can find and post my results.

Oh yeah... I almost forgot my original question..... So do you guys think the cast iron Oslo or the Heritage Soapstone would be best for my application?

Do all of you heat your homes with strictly wood or is it a mix of wood and/or gas - oil?

Biomass product? Where can I get something like that?


-Kevin-

 

[SteveT]

I'm not familiar with either of your candidate stoves so I can't help there. BUT, for a whole-house heater many people think an insert is better than a free standing stove... is there a reason you have ruled out the inserts? I recently bought a Hearthstone Clydesdale insert and my goal is, like yours, to greatly reduce the oil use. If you go with a freestanding stove you should consider a blower so that you get more convective heat.

Personally, I don't think that most houses lend themselves to using wood stoves as the sole heat source. Beyond the hot water issue is the distribution of heat. Houses with an open floor plan and a lot of insulation will heat fine with a stove but it seems (at least to me) that unless the house was designed/built with a stove in mind there will be some need for another heat source. That works fine with my goal. I used a wood stove for many years in a warmer climate (Maryland). My goal then was to reduce the use of electricity (I had resistance heat, not even a heat pump) and to be able to keep the rooms we spent most of the time in "toasty warm". I'm hoping for the same with my recent purchase of the insert.

Finally... biomass. Google Biobricks, or Envi logs. Or search this forum for the same key words. Basically they are compressed wood, like a pellet, but sized for burning in a stove. I purchased several tons in June and hope that will be my primary heat this season. Again, more costly than cordwood but it arrives ready to burn, stores well (basement or garage) and seems to be a valid option. Here's hoping!

 

[HearthKB]

I'm not familiar with either of your candidate stoves so I can't help there. BUT, for a whole-house heater many people think an insert is better than a free standing stove... is there a reason you have ruled out the inserts? I recently bought a Hearthstone Clydesdale insert and my goal is, like yours, to greatly reduce the oil use. If you go with a freestanding stove you should consider a blower so that you get more convective heat.

Finally... biomass. Google Biobricks, or Envi logs. Or search this forum for the same key words. Basically they are compressed wood, like a pellet, but sized for burning in a stove. I purchased several tons in June and hope that will be my primary heat this season. Again, more costly than cordwood but it arrives ready to burn, stores well (basement or garage) and seems to be a valid option. Here's hoping!

I was considering a firelplace insert but this thread got off of my original question that nobody brought it up but you. I was worried that an insert will not heat my downstairs as good as a free standing unit would (less radiant heat). Am I wrong for thinking this way?

Since almost everyone agrees that I will have a hard time finding good seasoned wood at this time of season, I looked into the BioBricks and EnviBlocks. I sent an email to each company for a list of suppliers in my area (11738). I'm curious to see how much it will cost. If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for your Biobricks?

 

[SteveT]

I was considering a firelplace insert but this thread got off of my original question that nobody brought it up but you. I was worried that an insert will not heat my downstairs as good as a free standing unit would (less radiant heat). Am I wrong for thinking this way?

Since almost everyone agrees that I will have a hard time finding good seasoned wood at this time of season, I looked into the BioBricks and EnviBlocks. I sent an email to each company for a list of suppliers in my area (11738). I'm curious to see how much it will cost. If you don't mind me asking, how much did you pay for your Biobricks?

Radiant heat will provide more heat line-of-sight, but once there is something in the way, like a wall, that doesn't apply. So depending upon your floor plan the free standing unit could be better. Free standing stoves will generally put more heat into a house for a given amount of fuel (less chimney losses) but they do tend to "localize" the heat. If you want part of the house really warm (as I did in my Maryland house) a free standing stove is probably better. Whole house heating without hot spots would call for either an insert or a free-standing stove with blower (a blower is essential on an insert). For what it's worth, I gave up on the free standing stove because I didn't want to lose floor space, not because of the type of heat it gives off. I like the aesthetics of a stove as well as the ability to top load -- it just didn't work here.

I paid $250/ton plus $22 shipping for the BioBricks but that was early June. Since then they have gone up $25/ton. See:

http://www.southshorewoodpellets.com/bio_brick

 

[Todd]

Just because you have a so called radiant stove doesn't mean you won't have any convection and will only heat what's directly in line sight. The advantage of freestanding stoves over inserts is you get both radiant and convection. It's a natural process where the cold air moves towards the hot stove and the heat rises up and out and creates a circulation loop or convection. The only radiant heat you will get from an insert is from the front glass and IMHO inserts are worthless without a blower. My stove is a soapstone, installed in the basement and heats the whole house (1800sq ft) without the use of a blower or fans. If you go with a freestander try it without the blower first and see how it works before you spend the extra money. A good ol fashioned box fan can move alot of air also.

 

[HearthKB]

Just because you have a so called radiant stove doesn't mean you won't have any convection and will only heat what's directly in line sight. The advantage of freestanding stoves over inserts is you get both radiant and convection. It's a natural process where the cold air moves towards the hot stove and the heat rises up and out and creates a circulation loop or convection. The only radiant heat you will get from an insert is from the front glass and IMHO inserts are worthless without a blower. My stove is a soapstone, installed in the basement and heats the whole house (1800sq ft) without the use of a blower or fans. If you go with a freestander try it without the blower first and see how it works before you spend the extra money. A good ol fashioned box fan can move alot of air also.

I have ceiling fans in almost every room in my house. Will it help to keep them on low all winter season?

Should I set them on up draft so it pulls the hot air from the other rooms? Or do I set them on down draft to push the hot air down?

 

[Todd]

I never had a home with ceiling fans, but I hear they rock when it comes to helping distribute the heat from wood stoves. What direction? I've heard both, I guess you need to try and see what works best.

 

[Highbeam]

Ceiling fans blow up in the winter.

I own one of your potential stoves, the heritage, and I love it for 24/7 burning. It is 2.3 CF of firebox and won't heat anything for 12 hours and when you do get back home you will need to start a new fire from scratch. It will still be warm but not a significant source of home heat. I would only give it 8 hours after you fill up the hot stove before it will be just a decoration. In my case someone can refill the stove every few hours so no big deal.

Your home is 2100 SF. The heritage is only rated by Hearthstone at less than 2000 (I forget the actual #) So... why not look at a larger Hearthstone? They are very attractive stoves. If this is purely an economic question and you need lots of heat for less money then take a look at the steel plate stoves such as Pacific Energy or Englander. These stoves can be less than half the cost of a Hearthstone and people seem to love them.

 

[HearthKB]

Ceiling fans blow up in the winter.

I own one of your potential stoves, the heritage, and I love it for 24/7 burning. It is 2.3 CF of firebox and won't heat anything for 12 hours and when you do get back home you will need to start a new fire from scratch. It will still be warm but not a significant source of home heat. I would only give it 8 hours after you fill up the hot stove before it will be just a decoration. In my case someone can refill the stove every few hours so no big deal.

Your home is 2100 SF. The heritage is only rated by Hearthstone at less than 2000 (I forget the actual #) So... why not look at a larger Hearthstone? They are very attractive stoves. If this is purely an economic question and you need lots of heat for less money then take a look at the steel plate stoves such as Pacific Energy or Englander. These stoves can be less than half the cost of a Hearthstone and people seem to love them.

Thanks for the tip regarding the fans!

Someone will most likely be around the house to feed a few logs in the stove during the day to keep it going. I do want this to burn 24/7 so my wife will feed it till I get home.

Yes my home is roughly 2,200 sq.ft, maybe a little more. The downstairs is about 1,600 sq.ft which is what I planned to heat with the stove. When I spoke with my local stove dealer he recommended the Heritage because of the long burn times and my goal of heating the downstairs. I didn't think a larger stove could actually heat the upstairs too so I never asked him about that option. I realize that I'll have to still heat the upstairs with oil. I usually turn down the thermostat to 68 during the day because nobody is ever upstairs during that time so I won't use that much oil. I hope!

In regards to a steel stove - The thing is... my wife and I don't like blazing heat in the room that the stove resides in. My brother-in-law has a steel stove in his den and when he cranks it up, its pretty unbearable. He likes it that way but I don't. Therefore, that's why I was going to purchase a soapstone stove for its even distribution of heat. I looked at the Phoenix which is rated a little higher than the Heritage but I liked the side loading option on the Heritage (easier for the wife to load it up). I guess I can look into the Mansfield which looks to be a powerhouse of a stove but it might be overkill for my application. Do you think otherwise?

I just checked the price of oil per gallon. It dropp $1 in the past week! It's down to $3.78. I wonder if its going to keep dropping.

I called a few firewood places and I found a guy who will deliver a full cord of hardwood for $190. I can purchase as many cords as I need at that price. I have to call him back to see how long the wood has been seasoned. $190 seems very cheap for seasoned wood so I'm guessing it might be a little green. If it is, what are the chances of it drying out by the time the wood burning season comes around?

 

[Todd]

I think you may want to consider the Mansfield if your looking to heat the whole 2200 sq ft. You will get longer burns and more BTU's with a full load. But if your satisfied with just heating your 1600 sq ft floor the Heritage should do the trick.

The soapstone will definitely feel different than steel or cast iron. You can sit close to them while they are burning and not feel that searing hot blast, just gentle warmth.

 

[HearthKB]

I think you may want to consider the Mansfield if your looking to heat the whole 2200 sq ft. You will get longer burns and more BTU's with a full load. But if your satisfied with just heating your 1600 sq ft floor the Heritage should do the trick.

The soapstone will definitely feel different than steel or cast iron. You can sit close to them while they are burning and not feel that searing hot blast, just gentle warmth.

I just measured the sq. footage of my house and it came out to 1,400 downstairs and 552 upstairs for a total of 1952 sq ft. My original estimates were about 200 sq ft. short! Boy.... I thought my house was much bigger! Sure feels that way when I'm cleaning up after the kids.

With that said, is it possible that the Heritage heat can make its way up 12 stairs with a rise of 9' and width of 32"? Or am I just asking too much out of a stove that size?

 

[4ofakind]

Shop around I am also from L.I. and just had an Arbor placed in my house for $3,600.00 installed and my partner had Oslo installed for 32,00.00. They both have great features. For getting wood If you shop around you could find wood for 150 per cord.

 

[Todd]

I think you may want to consider the Mansfield if your looking to heat the whole 2200 sq ft. You will get longer burns and more BTU's with a full load. But if your satisfied with just heating your 1600 sq ft floor the Heritage should do the trick.

The soapstone will definitely feel different than steel or cast iron. You can sit close to them while they are burning and not feel that searing hot blast, just gentle warmth.

I just measured the sq. footage of my house and it came out to 1,400 downstairs and 552 upstairs for a total of 1952 sq ft. My original estimates were about 200 sq ft. short! Boy.... I thought my house was much bigger! Sure feels that way when I'm cleaning up after the kids.

With that said, is it possible that the Heritage heat can make its way up 12 stairs with a rise of 9' and width of 32"? Or am I just asking too much out of a stove that size?

Sure, you will get some heat up there, how much is hard to say. Lots of variables like weather, insulation, firewood type and moisture, house lay out and others. I heat 1800 sq ft total from a basement install and I believe the Heritage is roughly the same size as my Fireview so the max BTU's should be about the same. My upstairs is always over 70 unless it's below zero with a stiff wind. Your in a little bit milder area than I, so you may be fine.

 

[cuffs1]

hi live on long island also. I just purchased the hearthstone heritage in the green. Love the way it looks. I went over to a place in CT named preston trading post to pick it up. Saved alot of money. The stove dealers on long island are way too expensive. I took the orient point ferry over at 2p.m. and took 7p.m. home all loaded. It worked out great. any questions [email protected] later Glenn