Help identify and guide a new guy

[beardley]

Hi Guys, I've been reading here for quite some time, but haven't really posted much. So here's the deal. I am renting a small stone house. 2 floors, but only about 900 sq ft total. Below is the stove that is in the house. It isn't in the greatest of shape, but it put out decent heat for the first few months we were here. So here are a few questions for the experts.

Anyone have an idea what brand/model this is? There aren't any tags or markings anywhere I can find. Looking at the baffle at the top can I assume this is an EPA stove?

I would often have issues with smoke coming back into the house, even after it was up to temp. I did have the chimney swept, it was better for a few weeks, but starts to slip back. The wood I am using is well seasoned, at the time it had about 14 months. Any thing I can look at/clean out?

What other maintenance should I look into for this stove before the cold weather comes?

The chimney is an internal brick, with a SS liner. The internal pipe is single wall.

 

[summit]

looks like a little englander

 

[webbie]

I think it is a Haughs (canadian stove).....but that same stove was also made by another company after. CFM may have made this under the Century name.

Yep, it's a CDW 244 plate steel stove - (current name)


I am fairly sure it is/was EPA.....it definitely burns clean.

The pipe appears to be too close to the ceiling. What is the ceiling made of?

 

[beardley]

The ceiling is actually a drop ceiling. The two panels near the stove pipe are not the standard drop ceiling material, rather a metal tile. Somewhat like metal siding.

 

[webbie]

I see - probably still would not pass muster with many officials. Lots of stuff unseen - for instance, how far from where the pipe goes through the wall...heading upwards, is there contact with wood, etc.?

How far is the drop ceiling below the actual ceiling?

 

[mellow]

Is it me or does that stove look like it has been overfired one to many times?

 

[thewoodlands]

I'm not sure on the model but the door must form an air-tight seal, it looks like you need a new gasket. I'm new to this so maybe someone else can jump in with a better view on the door gasket.

Thanks
Zap

 

[madrone]

Is it me or does that stove look like it has been overfired one to many times?

thinking the same thing. definitely needs new gaskets.

 

[beardley]

I see - probably still would not pass muster with many officials. Lots of stuff unseen - for instance, how far from where the pipe goes through the wall...heading upwards, is there contact with wood, etc.?

How far is the drop ceiling below the actual ceiling?

I just took a quick measurement. There is roughly 13" between the floor joists and the top of the drop ceiling + another 4 inches between the drop and the pipe. So that and the 1 inch for the drop itself, and it is 18" between the pipe and any wood.


For the gasket, I did plan on replacing that, as it does no longer seal.

You guys mentioned the over firing. Do you say that because of the white on the sides? When I moved in the firebrick on the sides was basically non-existent. I replaced the sides and the backs. Would those being missing cause this?

Anything else I should look into before the cold hits?

Thanks again guys.

 

[Slow1]

I'm still wondering about your smoke problem - how tall is that chimney? what does it look like from the outside? When the sweep came, I assume he looked at the cap as well - was it plugged up at all? How dirty was the the pipe when he cleaned it out?

Also - I noticed that silver band around the chimney in the first shot, is that some sort of tape?

 

[beardley]

I'm still wondering about your smoke problem - how tall is that chimney? what does it look like from the outside? When the sweep came, I assume he looked at the cap as well - was it plugged up at all? How dirty was the the pipe when he cleaned it out?

Also - I noticed that silver band around the chimney in the first shot, is that some sort of tape?

Here are some shots of the chimney.

Yes that is sealing tape around one of the joints. I plan on removing it and sealing all of the joints properly.

 

[mellow]

Usually when its white like that its caused by running the stove to hot for extended periods of time, it warps the steel and I have been told compromises its integrity. With the bricks not being on the side that would be one sure way to warp that steel.

 

[Slow1]

From my understanding smoke is generally caused by one of two things (or a combination of the two):

1) Poor draft - basically when you open the stove the smoke finds it easier to flow into the house than up the chimney pipe. Once you get the fire going the chimney should be hot and it should practically suck the smoke out of the stove. Although the basics of draft are pretty simple (hot air rises; or for the picky - heavy cold air pushes it up), there are a lot of things that can get in the way of a good draft. Some could be: Cold chimney (less likely for you with interior chimney), Obstructions (plugged cap, buildup of creasote, "something else in the pipe" birds nests etc), or the chimney being the wrong dimensions - too short, or perhaps poorly designed/installed - leaking cleanout, too poor connections, small connector pipe dumping into a chimney that is too large. Your sweep would hopefully have been able to identify and discuss these things with you since you called him in for poor draft issue - then again maybe he just came, swept, collected they bill, and left.

2) Poor quality wood - put simply if your wood isn't burning well it will smoke more and thus you can get smoke in the room since you just have a lot more of it. Now you said you have well seasoned 14 month wood - I assume you mean it has been split and stacked up off the ground for 14 months. Now that certainly is better wood than I had last year, but if it was oak it still just might surprise you to see the readings if you were to have split a piece and stuck a moisture meter into the pieces. Did you have any bubbling/hissing/etc?

The other thing I wonder about looking at that stove is how much it may have been abused prior to your moving in. As others pointed out, the sides being white like that sure looks like they have been subjected to serious heat. The firebricks having been removed (I'm assuming they indeed belong in there - I don't know that particular stove) really makes me wonder about the prior owner. If that stove has been seriously abused I wonder if it may have issues with air passages being blocked or air tubes broken etc. These sorts of things would affect the ability of the stove to burn well and thus produce more smoke I would think. Again - I'm speculating here as I know nothing about that stove but what has been posted in this thread. Replacing the gasket around the door and making sure it passes the "dollar bill" test is a good start in any case.

Now - about sealing that connector pipe. Others will correct me if I'm wrong (I am often times off base and nobody is bashful about correcting folks here) but if you have a properly drafting chimney then you really shouldn't need to "seal' any of those connections. The pipe should fit snug and you should have screws holding the pieces together (I seem to recall someone saying code calls for at least 3 at each joint). That generally should be all that is needed. The suction of a hot flue should insure that if anything air is pulled in through any leaks (so no smoke comes out) and having snug fit should minimize the leaks to begin with.

 

[Archie]

Did the sweep also clean the vent piping? If not, that could be creating blockage and causing the smoke problem.

 

[beardley]

Did the sweep also clean the vent piping? If not, that could be creating blockage and causing the smoke problem.

I'm new to the terms, so I assume you are talking about the stove pipe correct? Yes he did clean that, I have also taken that off and cleaned it out my self.

As for the guy I had sweep, I probably won't have him do it again. I don't think his brush had enough mustard to really get it clean. It was a very small round brush. It was some time ago, but if I had to guess it was 4 - 6 in across and maybe 2 inches deep. As the pictures show, the chimney has a rectangular insert in it so I doubt his brush could get it all.

 

[Archie]

Yes, stove pipe is what I meant. I see a thermometer on your pipe; are you running the stove hot enough? I have an older stove and it is happy between 350 - 450 F with seasoned wood. I also open a window near my stove when first starting to help with draft, then close when it hits a steady state. Your situation does seem curious.

 

[BrotherBart]

Did the guy actually go up top and take the cap off when he did the cleaning? That is the most restrictive looking cap I have ever seen.

 

[begreen]

Outside of the stove (and I agree about the strange cap) that is an interesting old place. What are it's origins? What's the little port about 3/4's up the wall for? Dovecote?

 

[begreen]

Looking at the stove pictures, it sure looks like it was run hard and wrong. Running without firebricks must have had that steel cherry red.

Also, hard to tell from the pictures, but is the flue pipe installed so that the crimps are pointing away from the stove, towards the chimney? If so, it's installed backward and might explain the silly tape on the pipe.

 

[branchburner]

Outside of the stove (and I agree about the strange cap) that is an interesting old place. What are it's origins? What's the little port about 3/4's up the wall for? Dovecote?

Yeah, it's a great structure. Maybe originally a stone barn that was converted?

 

[beardley]

Outside of the stove (and I agree about the strange cap) that is an interesting old place. What are it's origins? What's the little port about 3/4's up the wall for? Dovecote?

Yeah, it's a great structure. Maybe originally a stone barn that was converted?

Actually its original use was a slaughter house. There is still the foundation outside for the icehouse. The area I live in (skaneateles Falls NY) had a lot of industry in the 1800s because of a fairly powerful stream that runs out of Skaneateles Lake.

The port apparently had a ramp to the ground originally and the chicken coup was up there. The house was converted back in the 70s by the previous owner of the main house. Ironically, he planned on living in here, and renting the main house. The new owner obviously did the opposite.

The walls are roughly 2 feet thick, so the temperature stays pretty moderate in here. It only got above 76 twice over the whole summer with no AC!!.



As for the stovepipe, are you saying that it is upside down? The pipe had tape on all of the joints when I moved in. I removed the rest, but for some reason didn't remove that one. Don't ask me why because there isn't a reason. =)

So other that the fact it's been overfired and in need of a new door seal, is there anything I should look into on this stove? I cleaned out the top of it as best as I could and removed the ash buildup that was up there.

 

[begreen]

The crimp on each section of the pipe should be facing down, towards the stove. Personally I'd replace the pipe with double-wall connector pipe like Simpson DuraVent DVL. That will improve draft and code compliance. The flue doesn't appear to be that tall, so this will help. Have the chimney inspected, cleaned and talk with the sweep about a new cap too.

As for the stove. Check the door with a straight edge to assert that it hasn't warped and will seal tightly with a new gasket. My other concern is the back seal of the upper baffle bricks. That should be a tight seal. If the brackets that hold them have warped so that the bricks no longer seal tightly in back, then the flame path is going to be wrong and the stove will not work well. If this can be easily corrected, that would help a lot. Then give the stove a wire brushing, high temp painting, and new gaskets and cross your fingers. Or head to Lowes and pick up a new Summer's Heat stove for under $500. Sell the current stove for $100 and get the tax credit. That will give a lot more peace of mind for not a lot of money and you can include the new pipe cost as part of the installation for the new stove.

Last but not least, you should already have at least a few cords of nice dry wood already split and stacked, ready for winter. Modern stoves don't heat that well with less seasoned wood.

As to why the fairly new stove was run this way, I'm guessing it might have been poor draft and wood + dumb operator = poor heating.

 

[BrotherBart]

Speaking of Lowe's, looks like Corie has been at it again.

http://tinyurl.com/lv8av6

 

[begreen]

Nice! That's so fresh it's not even on Englander's website. It looks great. Kind of like a Morso in steel.

sneakpeaked a year ago

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/23984/P0/

 

[beardley]

The crimp on each section of the pipe should be facing down, towards the stove. Personally I'd replace the pipe with double-wall connector pipe like Simpson DuraVent DVL. That will improve draft and code compliance. The flue doesn't appear to be that tall, so this will help. Have the chimney inspected, cleaned and talk with the sweep about a new cap too.

As for the stove. Check the door with a straight edge to assert that it hasn't warped and will seal tightly with a new gasket. My other concern is the back seal of the upper baffle bricks. That should be a tight seal. If the brackets that hold them have warped so that the bricks no longer seal tightly in back, then the flame path is going to be wrong and the stove will not work well. If this can be easily corrected, that would help a lot. Then give the stove a wire brushing, high temp painting, and new gaskets and cross your fingers. Or head to Lowes and pick up a new Summer's Heat stove for under $500. Sell the current stove for $100 and get the tax credit. That will give a lot more peace of mind for not a lot of money and you can include the new pipe cost as part of the installation for the new stove.

Last but not least, you should already have at least a few cords of nice dry wood already split and stacked, ready for winter. Modern stoves don't heat that well with less seasoned wood.

As to why the fairly new stove was run this way, I'm guessing it might have been poor draft and wood + dumb operator = poor heating.

The left side in the back is warped, so that one brick doesn't sit quite right. I'll play with it some to see if it can be bent back. I have a feeling I won't be able to. The hard part again is that I am renting, so I don't own the stove. I'll have to have a chat with my landlord. He is rather well versed in wood heating (collects antique stove). Perhaps I can convince him that this thing needs a lot of work/ replacement. I'd be happy to pay for it if it comes out of my rent =)