Help sizing a stove, barn renovation

[begreen]

You can roughly judge your heat loss by looking at last year's heating bills for Dec/Jan/Feb.. How much fuel was consumed during those months? How much was the F100 used during this time and how much wood did it burn?

Or just don't worry about it. Get a stove with at least a 2 cu ft box. The Castine is more like 1.7 cu ft. In Jotul I would consider the F45 Greeneville. In PE, I would get the Alderlea T5 (not T4). The T5 will provide a longer burntime without worry about overheating the house. The Hearthstone Shelburne and Hampton H300 are 2 cu ft also. Quad did sell a Cumberland Gap which you may find at a discount on some dealer's floor. If so that is a good stove. It has been replaced by the Frontier II which looks like a nice design, but we don't have a lot of data on it yet. These are 2.5 cu ft stoves as is the Enviro Boston, which you should also consider. And last, if you want a cat stove with thermostatic control look at the Blaze King Ashford series.

 

[Grisu]

But I can't make the delivery without a dealer work out. Too far, too heavy, too complicated.

No high school or college kids around that would be willing for some bucks (or charitable donation when fundraising?) to drive the 30 min to pick up the stove and deliver it to your house? You could visit the factory and choose the stove beforehand so it would just sit there waiting for them. It will be even easier if you have the hearth ready then, too. For the install you can always hire an independent sweep in your area.

 

[Woody Stover]

They really do look terrible. I can't believe I'm the only one that sees it. It's pretty lonely over here.

I can't believe it's that lonely on the dark side, where only black stoves are liked. There are lots of people there, like Pol Pot, Hitler and Ozzy.

I agree with you, Redd. But, they need to make stoves for people with poor aesthetic taste, too!

Sure, the Fireview isn't going to fit into everyone's decorating scheme but OP has already stated that he doesn't find the look objectionable. You think the Keystone and PH look bad? Really?? But it's sure hard to beat the color selection and looks of a porcelain enamel cast stove, IMO.

I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about, but I feel like I do.

I'm still laughing at that one. It's in the same league with Lincoln's "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." I'm working on some permutations of your line for my own use. Maybe something like "I may not always be right, but at least I have the conviction to think I am."

Vermont Castings does show up on a lot of preferred lists, but there are many more negative comments about them.

I think they have done some re-design of their combustion system to be more durable, and probably suffer from a bad reputation which may be more unjustified now. I'm no VC expert, though.

I'm still of two minds about the cat-noncat question...the catalytic system seems very sensible.

In a space like that, where you don't spend all your time, I would want the long, even burn of a cat, not the roller-coaster ride in output and shorter burns that you get with a tube stove. For me, there comes a point where I have to go with function over form. Maybe there's a Buck or Blaze King dealer in your neck of the woods that would do the install for you, but the aesthetics of a steel stove probably don't appeal to you. There may be some other cat stoves with dealers that I'm overlooking. But if you have some handy buddies with construction/remodeling skills, and you have good attention to detail regarding installation instructions, clearance to combustibles, etc, installing the Woodstock isn't going to be a big deal. The Fireview's long cat burns and radiating heat would be hard for me to pass up in your situation. I'm pretty sure you can have it shipped to someplace close by, then recruit some help to get it home. Heck, a Keystone might even heat that place, but it wouldn't have quite the burn time of the Fv. The heating area ratings on the Woodstock site are conservative...

 

[gfirob]

You make a good argument, Woody. To be honest, I was really leaning towards that Fireview for all the reasons you suggest, but I kind of threw up my hands at the whole deliver-it-yourself thing. In my line or work there is an item of equipment that ways about like a woodstove (400 lbs or so) and men move it a lot, but it has handles and wheels and these guys move them for a living. And even so, sometimes they drop them. I sad to say I'm wise enough to know that people can get hurt moving stuff around that is this heavy.

On the other hand, Woodstock does offer to truck it to to someplace local with a loading dock, and I could probably hire a couple of guys with a pickup truck to pick it up and move it and unload it with levers and ramps, the way the Egyptians built the pyramids. And installing it would be the builders issue and they do a lot of that in Vermont. So it probably could be done. I could probably increase my comfort level with the idea by doing a little homework.

As for the the way they look, steel is no good for me and I'd rather have an honest stove that looks like the Fireview than a Jotul copy, which is what almost all the cast iron stoves that aren't Jotuls are, at least to me. And I don't mind they way those soapstone stoves look. The factory says you can come on down and pick out your stone yourself, if you are particular.

So this has been very helpful. Maybe I'll go on down to the factory and take a look when the weather clears up a little. Probably next June...

Rob

 

[begreen]

Rob. I am no spring chicken. I moved in our 600# T6 with it ratchet strapped to a heavy duty appliance dolly. I had two friends on hand to help. The stove was off the truck and in place in 20 minutes. Once it is on wheels life gets easier.

 

[Woody Stover]

Woodstock does offer to truck it to to someplace local with a loading dock, and I could probably hire a couple of guys with a pickup truck to pick it up and move it and unload it with levers and ramps, the way the Egyptians built the pyramids. And installing it would be the builders issue and they do a lot of that in Vermont. So it probably could be done. I could probably increase my comfort level with the idea by doing a little homework

That's the spirit! And I guarantee it won't be anywhere near as hard as building a pyramid. There was a freight terminal in my (bigger) town. It's crated, and I had them load it on my low 5x8 trailer so it was easier to unload than out of a pickup bed. Trailer has a ramp, so we used a ratchet strap and a two-wheel dolly to unload and bring it in. Actually, I've been moving my stoves around in the house with a cheap Harbor Freight dolly. I use a lever, like a wrecking bar or similar on a wood block fulcrum, to pick up one side of the stove, then slip a 2x4 under the legs on that side. I work back and forth between the sides until the stove is high enough to slip the dolly underneath, then reverse the process to let the stove down onto the dolly. Piece of cake. But the wheels are small, so a two-wheel dolly would probably work better for unloading and bringing it into the house.

Maybe I'll go on down to the factory and take a look when the weather clears up a little. Probably next June

Sounds like a plan. I think they are buried right now anyhow under orders for the new Ideal Steel stove they just came out with. I'm waiting for the smaller version, then I'll keep the Keystone for my backup stove, which I need as wood is our only heat. Bottom line, if you get a Fireview you'll fall in love with it like everyone does; So easy to run and maintain, and the wonderful radiant heat cannot be beat.

 

[Woody Stover]

Rob. I am no spring chicken. I moved in our 600# T6 with it ratchet strapped to a heavy duty appliance dolly. I had two friends on hand to help. The stove was off the truck and in place in 20 minutes. Once it is on wheels life gets easier.

The Fireview is "only" 520, all crated up. But I'm more like a fall turkey, about 3 days before Thanksgiving.

 

[Stegman]

As the owner of a Castine, I thought I'd toss in my two cents.

First off, we love our Castine. Throws off a lot of heat and looks good doing it. That said, if I could do it over again I'd buy the next size up Jotul [forget the name and I'm too lazy to Google it right now].

The Castine fits our space well [into an existing fireplace] because it has real low clearances and a shallow firebox, but the lack of depth is kind of a pain in the ass. You can only get two decent size logs front to back with maybe another two or three on top if you do a little Tetris work. It'll hold a burn overnight, but just barely, and requires frequent reloading when it's really cold.

In a big, open space like you're going to have, I'd definitely go with something that offers a bigger firebox.

 

[begreen]

That echoes our experience with the Castine. It is a beautiful stove and a good radiant heater. But it's firebox is moderate and shallow. It is a good area heater, but not an ideal house heater unless the home is small.

 

[OK_Bill]

(snip) Vermont Castings does show up on a lot of preferred lists, but there are many more negative comments about them.

I'm still of two minds about the cat-noncat question. Jotul seems to get pretty high marks for their clean burn system, but the catalytic system seems very sensible. Is there a consensus about that? I see that there are lots of people who still swear by the old air-tight stoves like the old Jotul 118, but my own chimney fire experiences make me embrace the newer stoves.

In my research, which spanned the better part of a year and first hand visits to 3 dealers, I found out that new stoves all must meet EPA requirements for emissions. Unfortunately, everybody now has to build-in compliance - and what I found is that there will be some kind of controlled but constant air supply to the firebox no matter how far you close the air control down. Does not matter the brand - but some do it better than others.

My Encore complies by running dedicated air ports into the firebox that are tied to the secondary combustion plenum. That air cannot be shut down - and it makes the stove much less controllable. Some brands do it much much better, and I'm not the guy to comment at length on that but I do see Blaze King stoves seem to have a very well developed air control system. My wife just didn't like the way their products looked...

But - back to the CAT / nonCAT thing - the Encore does that trick. The CAT can be removed and the stove will still run with EPA compliance without the CAT in place. The difference is a much shorter burn, but prettier flames. I run it with the catalytic brick in place and it cruises along nice and slow for a good long time. Since we have the stove in place as a major piece of decor in the room, there will be times I'll run it for more ambiance with the CAT taken out - perhaps when we're having company over or whatever. My point is that its nice to have the option to run either way.

 

[BrotherBart]

Not true. If the stove won't allow less than 35 to 1 air/fuel it can be EPA exempt. No emissions testing required. The manufacturer just has to assert the air fuel ratio.

 

[OK_Bill]

I love free instruction. Thank you.

 

[BrotherBart]

Also if you build less than 50 stoves a year, they don't have to be EPA tested or certified.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I can't believe it's that lonely on the dark side, where only black stoves are liked. There are lots of people there, like Pol Pot, Hitler and Ozzy.

I'm actually a big fan of enamel finishes of various colors, eh?

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I'm still laughing at that one. It's in the same league with Lincoln's "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." I'm working on some permutations of your line for my own use. Maybe something like "I may not always be right, but at least I have the conviction to think I am."

It's a simple matter of self awareness.

 

[BKVP]

I'm actually a big fan of enamel finishes of various colors, eh?

Please don't place Ozzy in the same sentence as the other two names Woody....Keith Richards yes, Ozzy no.

 

[gfirob]

After a lot of thought and considering all the good advice here, I have narrowed it down to a Jotul F400 or Jotul F500. There is a dealer near enough that I can pick it up with a pickup truck and the prices are pretty good, and I hear a lot of good reviews on the ground in Vermont for Jotuls. So the final thought is the size question between these two stoves. There is only a $250 price difference factoring in the Jotul discount. The F500 has a bigger firebox, but I would worry that it is more heat than the space needs and I would end up burning it low too much of the time. Am I just being a sissy and I should go for the bigger stove? Looks like the 24/7 burn would be easier on the bigger stove. Any thoughts?
Thanks

 

[begreen]

Well, this is a step up from the Morso 2B. The F400 will do overnight burns with hardwood, just. In this case it would be my choice over the F500. I still suggest however you look at the PE Alderlea T5. It's benefits will be longer burn time, a square firebox, less draft fussy, a softer less radiant heat and the flexible trivet top. Our previous stove was the F400 and it is one of the most beautiful stoves we've owned. But it's temp is more cyclical than the Alderlea and it can't be loaded as full. With a very full load in the F400, logs rolling against the glass get old. The Alderlea's mass makes a difference. In Jotul I would also consider the F45 Greenville which has similar construction to the Alderlea.

 

[Ashful]

I have nothing of value to add, except to say begreen knows his poop, so to speak. Go with his suggestion.

Merry Christmas!

 

[gfirob]

The Jotul F35 Greenville is a steel and iron stove with firebrick interior, and a front to back load (cigar burn) do I understand that correctly? I think its fairly new because I can't find reviews of it. But this is a very different stove from the F400 esthetically. Is there a major performance edge for this type of stove over cast iron (like the F400 or F500)? Is this a convection stove? It costs about the same as the Jotul F400, but I had not considered it because of the way it looks.

 

[begreen]

The F45 is smaller version of the popular F50/F55 series. (look for F45 or Greeneville for reviews) The firebox is not truly cigar box shaped like the F602 or F118, but it is a predominately N/S loader. It is ~ 18" deep x ~ 15" wide IIRC. By comparison, the Alderlea T5 firebox is square. Both are aesthetically and functionally different from the F400 in that they are true N/S loaders and convection stoves as opposed to radiant stove. The T5 is part of the PE Super 27 family which is known for good fire control and long burn times.

 

[gfirob]

Thanks, begreen. So the advantages of this kind of stove over a Jotul F400 are less direct radiant heat (you can sit closer to it) more convection (movement of air) and longer burn time? I assume the firebricks give it more mass for longer heat retention too, would that be correct? The down side for me is the spare design compared to the cast iron. But is sounds like this might be a better design functionally.

 

[begreen]

Yes, but the F45 will probably be roughly equal in burn time to the F400. The Alderlea T5 will beat it because of it's greater capacity and unique coupled secondary draft control. The firebricks are less for mass (they are pumice stone in the PE) and more for insulating the firebox so that the fire burns hotter and cleaner. See the suggested stoves in person. They are nicely detailed.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Is there a major performance edge for this type of stove

Yes. The edge is in the ability to actually fill the firebox. The wide, shallow fireboxes exchange "pretty" for "performance."

 

[begreen]

Not everyone is heating 24/7 with their stoves. It wouldn't surprise me if the majority are only used nights and weekends. There are several shallow, E/W loading black steel boxes made too. Many of Drolet's midsized stove are E/W loaders as is the big Lopi Liberty and the Liberty is a serious heater. The shallow design is to satisfy a common request to minimize the stove + hearth's intrusion into the room space. An E/W stove also has a wider fireview that is more similar to a fireplace view.