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Posted By Elderthewelder,
Jan 2, 2011 at 4:06 AM
Sorry to say that just does not work well, many examples of it all around.
I was talking about the licenses and classes and... oh never mind.
I'm gonna go find chocolate and more coffee.
I think it is telling how the folks that are OK with the government regulation are located in parts of the country--or in different countries--where there is already plenty of regulation. A frog in a pot of slowly warming water comes to mind...
The comment by the Canadian that says that neighbors end up in shootouts is absurd. You think that someone that is willing to shoot their neighbor over some woodsmoke is going to abide by a local ordinance? Please.
I would like to see two things before this ordinance was enacted. First and unbiased scientific study directly linking woodsmoke from home heating appliances to health concerns. Second, and attempt at correcting the problem burners before resorting to blanket legislation.
The fact that the folks pushing this ordinance are against biomass heating should be enough to raise red flags.
Dan, you should come back to the discussion, I was enjoying the mental exercise.
The phenomina above is why a representative republic vastly superior to a true democracy.
You can only educate those willing to listen. Consider your local speed limit: you can tell every driver about the curves, the blind drives, and the kids playing. But some people do as they wish, so a degree of regulation and enforcement is needed.
The trouble with some burn bans is they are like having a 20mph speed limit that applies to pickup trucks only, while the Macks and BMWs and Priuses (Prii? Priora?) doing 50mph never get pulled over at all.
Actually I said "sometimes ended up in family feuds and shoot-outs". I was referring to the comment you made "system of neighbors keeping each other in check has worked for the last 200 years". Yes in most cases it has and does work. But there are also cases within that 200 year timespan, where disputes were not resolved amicably. Yes I agree, bad things can and do still happen in present day, regardless of ordinance/by-law.
However, the reality is that our society has changed and the population has increased. Many people live side by side and don't even know each other. The neighbourly system for many is not practiced or understood. Much like chivalry, paying attention while driving, stopping at a red light, etc. That is were regulation and enforcement is sometimes required and is a necessary evil.
But I don't think governments have a free reign to do what they want. There are some government regulations that I also totally disagree with. Regulation has to be grounded in the best science, common sense, logic, and practicality. I do agree also agree with you that the target should be on the worst offenders (eg. smoke dragons, oil-burners etc.) and the science has to be unbiased, while looking at the whole life-cycle of each resource or product, from extraction to end-use/disposal.
I think the one posters comment about why is diesel allowed even though it pollutes more is a good one. If we have the technology to make diesel/emissions cleaner, we should be using and applying the technology. That is also where government has to step up. But these issues get even more complicated because many solutions usually impact our wallets (as the voting population), which we don't like either.
So just what kind of damage does this "brown air" cause?
And does the solution cause more damage?
The fact that humans pollute is inescapable. We actually have people who move from the city to the country, then raise legal hassles because they think the neighboring farms stink! Some people need to accept reality.
On the other hand that doesn't excuse the easily avoidable pollution problems.
And sometimes things are just a matter of semantics. The idea of a government inspecter coming around an meddling in my woodpile makes the hair on the back of my neck stand. However, if a burn ban is an inescapable reality, and if proving to some guy that my woodpile is dry would give me an exemption to the ban I might consider it.
Although I think I would oppose the burn-ban outright. There's just something naturally wrong with telling a guy he can't cut down a tree to heat his house through the winter.
Perhaps a "mileage" tax for residents of those big cities who are forcing their neighbors to use fossil fuel heat. They get their mileage on their vehicle checked every month and pay so much per mile. Then that money can go to subsidize the gas/oil/electric bills of the poor folks who can't burn wood on account of someone else's auto exhaust.
Or perhaps that brown air ain't really that bad.
That sucks. Sounds like Madison, WI...85 square mile surrounded by reality.
I've heard that saying so many times . . . and I laugh every time!
I hope you're living in reality. It's much better out here.
Thanks for reminding me that we do ALL have free speech , I almost forget with all this regulatory talk, glad you threw that in your post. I'm included in the ALL.
Did you ever think people can be insulted by their so called "good info" "contructive criticism". Hey lets get some more government oversight and regulations. Now that is insulting to ME. but that is OK with YOU.
Need a tissue? Most girls use Kleenex.
Man, do I have a head ache. Spent the last hour, almost trying to read this thread, and generally you all have said, make someone else responsible, it's the other guy's fault.
Fact is the air is bad in many places in America and the world. Remember the Olympics in Beijing? They were going to cancel all long distance or endurance events because of the concern over the health of the athletes. China's answer, they shut down all polluting business, might say all business.
The reason for the bans has been lost in all you have said above. Air quality is a health issue and the air at the time is so bad, it's adversely affecting peoples health. Those people are not able to control their air, but someone should be, right? Besides the burn bans, there are target industries that must shut down before they go to the public, I think someone on another thread mentioned the Seattle powerplant, and the Trash Burners/Incinerators. Those plants have scrubbers on their exhausts, do any of you have scrubbers to clean the air??? What you put out is affecting others around you, you share the responsibility.
In Utah where there is a serious issue, much worse than the Puget Sound, they have "Redburn days" Not only do they shut down many industrial plants and "Home wood/pellet/coal burning, but they stop outdoor play at schools, curtail the athletic activity indoors and out. Stop all unnecessary vehicle traffic by government agencies and force the coal fired power plants to switch to the alternative fuel, natural gas. They even regulate the take off fuel use in air planes and get the Air Force to limit unnecessary flying.
If you think this is CRAP, walk you asses down to the emergency room of a hospital and sit in the emergency waiting room for a few hours and count the number of people who come in with respiratory problems. I have a brother with asthma, he moved from Utah specifically because he didn't want to live on his inhaler.
Now, I'm no spring chicken and I have done my share of irresponsible things like running my business without good dust control and air scrubbers, but now I have an industrial particulate cleaner in shop and home, just for bad air times. If you doubt the impact, walk, not even run, in that bad air and see what your body tells you.
Oh, and you folks that say you can't see smoke, the particles that most affect your health are not visible they are less the .05 microns, but they are the same problem that creates the yellow highways. Detection, simple a light gun set to the right spectrum. Same thing the smog cops in California use to tag cars. Same as many states that have mandated emissions inspections. Night time burning, you have a heat signature in your stack, unique from an oil or natural gas signature.
Seems like many of you want to get around the very real problem, well.... Face your kids, and grand kids and blithely say, "Screw you, I'll do what I want.".
My propane gas furnace is rated at 95% or better but the old unit was rated at 85%. The new gas ones are rated at 96.6. What if an insert (or a wood stove) is rated an 85% unit or better and then I can get an exemption? What is the difference from 85% to 85% and if the air is clean?
A lot of the stoves on the EPAâ€™s site has are rated 78%. I believe using an cat AND injection some gas so the gas would bump that to 85% or better. If you house does not has gas, you could use a propane tank (like a propane BBQ grill) to hook it up.
We better stoves we can use wood and then nobody can care.
My 2 cents.
'Bout a half hour South. It's normal enough here.
Pretty big talk for someone who pollutes another person's community using massive energy compressing sawdust into pellets, bagging the pellets and transporting them across the region/country to deliver them to your electricty using stove.
Hmm... maybe we need MORE burn bans. Or get some of these rules to apply 365 days a year!
Too bad it's business as usual on the 100 days leading up to (and helping cause) a burn ban.
Its a fine thing to be passionate, wood burning etc. but to get on a computer and actually get heated is a tad on the indignant side of things.
burn bans happens because we let them. we are the ones who care about it so much and are complaining, we are the one who never spoke up when they came about or lobby ourselves to policitans. I can agree that its sad you would have to do so in order to have a fire.
However this really isnt new, come on you didnt think that it is right? guys, gals there has been 'hearth taxes' for literally centuries. sure its true that this was at times aimed at foundries forges. others at private residents. government will always find a way to squeeze more from less.
someone wrote one here (im not going to dime on anyone, go back and read yourself, and yes im paraphrasing) "i cant see why someone should tell me i cant burn something that grow naturally" - What about certain drugs?
my point in all of this is be passionate, but why banter back and forth with people that agree or are of similar position? i.e. nearly everyone here?
Its unfortunate, possibly untrue, laden with mistruths and set to benifit few, hurt more. unless we stand and fight of some sorts AGAINST those that impose...how can we complain?
Oh the boys are just havin some fun. :lol:
your correct guy, were having fun
I like the fun part of burning. being nice and toasty. not having to worry about someone telling me not to, or that I pollute. to me its unfair for those that have to deal with it. unfair tends to not be fun.
oh you meant the ribbing....well yes well I can agree.
Looking at it from a different perspective, it seems someone's trying to depopulate much of the "left coast."
Population cannot expand in a given area indefinitely, not without some sacrifices.
Find facts. Take action.