MountainStoveGuy
Minister of Fire
Since every part of the country is different, you can compare raw cost of btu/million here...
http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm
http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm
Hey all you PelletHeads... 'splain this to me:
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Not every area has pellet prices like you describe. I have seen prices ranging from $139-149 a ton in June.
My elderly parents have a fuel oil furnace and are spending about $700-800 a month to heat their home. I tried like hell to talk them into a pellet stove this fall, but mom decided against it. I know they would have saved money burning pellets v.s. the oil burner, but they're busy people and it seemed like too much work to them. A cheaper model probably would have paid for itself already this year.
My elderly parents have a fuel oil furnace and are spending about $700-800 a month to heat their home. I tried like hell to talk them into a pellet stove this fall, but mom decided against it. I know they would have saved money burning pellets v.s. the oil burner, but they're busy people and it seemed like too much work to them. A cheaper model probably would have paid for itself already this year.
Shane
Minister of Fire
I'm paying around 160 per ton and according to the hearth.com fuel cost calculator I am saving around 4 dollars per million btus over NG and around 6 w/ electricity. Subract around a dollar for that for the additional electricity usage, and I am personally still saving money. Now if I had invested in a pellet stove and the cost of running the pellet stove was the same as NG I would continue to use the pellet stove just so my investment was not sitting there idle. But as soon as the price was more than NG I would immediately discontinue use of the stove. I mean a wood stove to me has aesthetic value the ambiance of the flames etc. But my pellet stove doesn/t do that for me it's a heater just like a furnace. Blow torch flame has no romance so I cannot figure that into the equation. I will say that IMO pellet stoves have (had) the chance to really shine this year and the industry dropped the ball and put another black mark on pellet stoves. I know I know Katrina Katrina is the reason for all troubles but it goes a little bit deeper than that. Pellet stove sales had been growing largely in the 2-3 years prior to this last season and I feel was largely ignored by some manufacturers and many were caught with their pants down with a warehouse full of gas fireplaces.
drizler
Minister of Fire
Hey you oil guys, you gotta get into one of those oil coops that have sprung up . Ours here in Northern NY rocks but you gotta make a charitable donation of $20/ year to their favorite charity and pay for it on the spot when they deliver. They also deliver when they decide to and fill the tank, no $100 here and there. In all hey it works. I got mine for the introductory price of $1.99 and filled 2 tanks and my dozer for a lofty $1200. Thats kept me in hot water and some quick warm the house added heat since October and I just finished off the last of the drum in the basement a couple days ago. In all it takes some wiggling, wrangling and tricks to get the best bang for the buck but at least with oil you can shop around which beat nat gas. Check out those coops they are worth it.
With the pellet stove I said it time and time again get a multifuel. If you can't do that burn a high percentage of corn in your pellet stove. Most if not all will burn 50% and all you lose is a bit more cleaning and your pipe will deteriorate a bit faster. Many burn nearly 100% with care. For those who worry about that my Countryside (Magnum) new name, calls for now and always has simple Simpsons Duravent not the special double stainless stuff. thats so $$$$. No big deal as it screws apart so easily for inspection and only costs $175 for a kit at Lowes anyways. My only advice is that while mine will burn nasty semi wet stuff is to buy the 11% bagged dried stuff. What comes off the feedlot floor doesn't burn as well or hot and will cause you lots of grief without a stirrer. In my case it burns so much hotter and cleaner that I finally decided to use it for $25 more / ton $125 vs $150 that its worth the extra cost even though the bags are more hassle than the truck bed to me. GET GOOD STUFF work up from 20 %. The most you will lose is your ability to autostart at most. If you live in the north theres no reason to shut it down except to clean it anyways really.
On the electricity issue my bill went way down with the stove and fans as it has for most others. Lets face it that bigass Wayne slamming on and off guzzles juice. Don't forget how much electric they use on startup as opposed to running, thats the issue. You learn these things living on a generator like we did during the 98 ice storm. So much in fact it should be a 220v not 110 but then so should the damned refrigerator but thats the USA and convenience rules. If you want the best info on mixing corn look at the pellet section of iburncorn.com forum and see what they are up to. Its not operating now but will be back in a few days, a victim of its own success. Sorry about the continued plug of the site but it is IMO the single best site for corn burning information out there. Remember if nothing else every little thing you do helps screw the oilman and the arabs so you can take pride in your efforts as they both have been ripping you off for decades.
With the pellet stove I said it time and time again get a multifuel. If you can't do that burn a high percentage of corn in your pellet stove. Most if not all will burn 50% and all you lose is a bit more cleaning and your pipe will deteriorate a bit faster. Many burn nearly 100% with care. For those who worry about that my Countryside (Magnum) new name, calls for now and always has simple Simpsons Duravent not the special double stainless stuff. thats so $$$$. No big deal as it screws apart so easily for inspection and only costs $175 for a kit at Lowes anyways. My only advice is that while mine will burn nasty semi wet stuff is to buy the 11% bagged dried stuff. What comes off the feedlot floor doesn't burn as well or hot and will cause you lots of grief without a stirrer. In my case it burns so much hotter and cleaner that I finally decided to use it for $25 more / ton $125 vs $150 that its worth the extra cost even though the bags are more hassle than the truck bed to me. GET GOOD STUFF work up from 20 %. The most you will lose is your ability to autostart at most. If you live in the north theres no reason to shut it down except to clean it anyways really.
On the electricity issue my bill went way down with the stove and fans as it has for most others. Lets face it that bigass Wayne slamming on and off guzzles juice. Don't forget how much electric they use on startup as opposed to running, thats the issue. You learn these things living on a generator like we did during the 98 ice storm. So much in fact it should be a 220v not 110 but then so should the damned refrigerator but thats the USA and convenience rules. If you want the best info on mixing corn look at the pellet section of iburncorn.com forum and see what they are up to. Its not operating now but will be back in a few days, a victim of its own success. Sorry about the continued plug of the site but it is IMO the single best site for corn burning information out there. Remember if nothing else every little thing you do helps screw the oilman and the arabs so you can take pride in your efforts as they both have been ripping you off for decades.
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
Driz said:
So I was being ripped off when I paid 69 cents a gallon for gas in the 80's? I thought it was a very good price - much cheaper than spring water!
Although we Americans like to make everything into "you're with us or against us" wars, it's not quite that simple. The price of oil is just as much determined by speculators, our own abuse of it, wall street (and Chicago), weather and many other factors. It's not an "evil" fuel - actually a pretty good one.
The problem - as it is with many other things (food-drugs-women-men) is that we tend to overdo it in our quest for personal satisfaction and happiness. I like the idea of multi-fuel everything.....many industrial companies have capability to burn either gas or oil. Adding renewables to the mix at home and elsewhere can only help.
Webmaster said:
I suspect that is exactly right. There are lots of inefficient ducted systems out there. In our house we have a forced air propane gas furnace with half-insulated ductwork in the crawlspace. Terribly inefficient due to heat losses in the ductwork and wasted heat in the warmup/cooldown. Our pellet stove is entirely in the heated living space with very little heat loss. For me to make a fair comparision I would need to have a propane gas stove in the living space, but I prefer to get off of fossil fuels.
When running the furnace I know that I am getting large losses especially for short, daytime runs that would just keep the house at temp. That's why I only run it once in the morning to help bring the temp up to 67 and then it is set back to 61 until the next morning. We're in the process now of getting a proper foundation on the house with a good workable crawlspace. Once I can work in there, the floor will get insulated. Then, I am contemplating new heating options including heat pump, central pellet and hydronic. In the meantime, the pellet stove is doing an admirable job of saving us money while maintaining automated comfort.
.
Well, I can only go by my receipts. And thats what they add up to ( thats delivered, no gas involved). Could you tell me how you come up with 10% cheaper for pellets? If I use the form MountainStoveGuy posted the link for, and compare Cost per million BTU to Cost per million BTU then to me It looks like its closer to 33% (using the default efficiency)- but I'm no math wiz and prob screwed it up
my oil burner is in my cellar, and when running kept the celler very warm just from the heat off the unit itself (losing some of its efficiency- the ceiling from cellar to 1st floor is well insulated so not much going through)- now with the pellet stove in the livingroom I assume the same heat off the unit adds to the efficiency of that unit ( but you can now see your breath in the cellar)
Also with the oil burner, all the pipes to the radiators run up through outside walls, would that lose some heat also or not?
I doubt my Oil burner is inefficient, it was installed in 1967, could it be ineffiecient already? and surely the technology couldnt be outdated yet...
Tell me you're joking. 1967 was before many posters on this forum were born. Before the Opec oil embargo. There have been a lot of efficiency gains since then. If you can see your breath in the cellar, how is it very warm?
No joke about 1967, but yes I'm joking about it being "efficient" - When I used it up till last year, it was very warm in the cellar, now without it running I can see my breath
vgrund
Feeling the Heat
I was pretty excited about adding a pellet insert in the late summer of 2005, but I waited. I am so glad I did, for time exposed serious supply problems. Debate the causes all you like, but there is no way I'm investing in a $4K insert with such fuel supply problems. My dear wife and I are now debating adding a wood insert instead.
There were no pellet supply issues until Katrina. Then all fuel source prices on the east coast went up. Buy in August and this is a non-issue., but it would be great to hear from pellet suppliers on lessons learned and changes coming for next fall.
vgrund
Feeling the Heat
BeGreen said:
Understood, and believe me I wish I had more confidence in the pellet fuel industry. It is possible we'll procrastinate through another heating season. By then New England Wood Pellet, our closest producer, will have executed their plans for significant expansion of production.
Usually come Jan and all wood and pellet stoe inspections are completed. Not this year. I have done about 15
since the begining of the year. I'm in a small town of 10,000. All those who were put on a waiting list their stove shipments are arriving. Most delayed were the pellet stoves then inserts. . 3 Dealers have told me, they have received notices of price increases when ordering after April. With new pellet stove still comming onboard, It is hard to figure there will be price reductions, this sunmmer for pellets. My oppinion they will be more available but don't expect a huge price reduction.
What nobody has addressed in this post is the cost of the stove and maintance. the talk is about the savings gas / oil vs pellets.
I mean what some of these pellet stove cost and installations, one could replace your boiler to a modern more effecient one,
there are ways to make your heating sysytem more effecient. On the burner side a motorized Damper prevents heat loss up the chimney. Add that to an oil burner and install a fire retentioner for more effeciency change the nozzel spray and angle tweak your system to be more effecient.
Insulation pipes and duct work prevents heat loss before it reaches conditioned living space. Add insulation to retain the heat once it enters the living spaces. Draft proof leaky windows doors outlet plugs and any other purge like around recessed lights attic pull down stairs. To the poster that cellar used to be warm. you are the prime example or heat loss to unconditioned spaces wasting energy
No wonder your fuel bill and gallonage usage was so high. Not the example I would use to impress on how effecient my stove was compared to my burner
since the begining of the year. I'm in a small town of 10,000. All those who were put on a waiting list their stove shipments are arriving. Most delayed were the pellet stoves then inserts. . 3 Dealers have told me, they have received notices of price increases when ordering after April. With new pellet stove still comming onboard, It is hard to figure there will be price reductions, this sunmmer for pellets. My oppinion they will be more available but don't expect a huge price reduction.
What nobody has addressed in this post is the cost of the stove and maintance. the talk is about the savings gas / oil vs pellets.
I mean what some of these pellet stove cost and installations, one could replace your boiler to a modern more effecient one,
there are ways to make your heating sysytem more effecient. On the burner side a motorized Damper prevents heat loss up the chimney. Add that to an oil burner and install a fire retentioner for more effeciency change the nozzel spray and angle tweak your system to be more effecient.
Insulation pipes and duct work prevents heat loss before it reaches conditioned living space. Add insulation to retain the heat once it enters the living spaces. Draft proof leaky windows doors outlet plugs and any other purge like around recessed lights attic pull down stairs. To the poster that cellar used to be warm. you are the prime example or heat loss to unconditioned spaces wasting energy
No wonder your fuel bill and gallonage usage was so high. Not the example I would use to impress on how effecient my stove was compared to my burner
We'll see about pellet prices, ours have remained mostly stable for several years, including this winter. I'm hoping east coast industries will realize there are good profits to be made locally and there is a growing market. My understanding is that in 2005 the market wasn't really there on the east coast, so they were selling large quantities to Europe. It's kind of a chicken before the egg situation. If the demand is there now, it would be great to know that the wholesalers are gearing up to provide a much larger supply in the east.
Our Quad is pretty low maintenance. Much less than the Jotul if you include ash pan dumping and glass cleaning in maintenance. I spend about 15 minutes every two weeks vacuuming it out and cleaning the glass. During the summer I do a throrough clean out and inspection. That takes about an hour. The stove has gone through two fan switches (about $8 each) and one controller box at about $100. The controller box was a bummer, especially because the warranty for it expired a few months before. But the new controller is better built and has worked fine. Even once we get a real foundation + crawlspace on our house and can access the ducts, I probably won't spend any more on the current system. Propane has gone up every year we've lived here and is currently running $2.50 to $3.00 per gallon. Forced air systems are inherently inefficient so we may be switching to hot water, not sure what fuel yet.
Our Quad is pretty low maintenance. Much less than the Jotul if you include ash pan dumping and glass cleaning in maintenance. I spend about 15 minutes every two weeks vacuuming it out and cleaning the glass. During the summer I do a throrough clean out and inspection. That takes about an hour. The stove has gone through two fan switches (about $8 each) and one controller box at about $100. The controller box was a bummer, especially because the warranty for it expired a few months before. But the new controller is better built and has worked fine. Even once we get a real foundation + crawlspace on our house and can access the ducts, I probably won't spend any more on the current system. Propane has gone up every year we've lived here and is currently running $2.50 to $3.00 per gallon. Forced air systems are inherently inefficient so we may be switching to hot water, not sure what fuel yet.
vgrund
Feeling the Heat
In my area, AFAIK there is only one local producer. Their most recent press release contained the following nuggets. The second to last bullet is not very promising since it costs so much to transport bio fuels of this energy density.
"New England Wood Pellet is expanding rapidly to meet growing demand and maintain and build its position as the most competitive, lowest cost producer of premium wood pellet fuel in the Northeast. Expansion plans are underway that include the following major actions in the next 12-18 months:
* Construction of a $1.5 million fabrication plant in Jaffrey where machinery for multiple new plants will be designed, tested, refined and efficiently produced (under construction; opening in spring, 2006)
* Evaluation of new plant sites in Massachusetts and New York (underway), representing a capital investment of $16 million, with the eventual goal of increasing company-wide production to 300,000 tons annually (late 2007).
* Bulk shipping, bagging and distribution of nearly 100,000 tons annually from a Canadian pellet manufacturer, to supplement our production capability (fall, 2006)
* Increasing employment to nearly 60 full-time positions (late 2007)."
I'm glad New England Wood Pellet is fully engaged in an effort to grow this industry. Hopefully other companies in the region will form and follow suit. Many more suppliers are needed around here.
Also, Elk's comments on increasing efficiency are right on target. I did a lot of that in the late summer / fall (I'm still finding areas to improve so I consider it an ongoing effort). I realized a 30-35% reduction in heating costs over last year. It has been a warm winter, but not that warm. Another benchmark is our LP deliveries. My supplier uses an algorithm that includes prior demand patterns and heating degree days. They used to arrive consistently when my tank had 10-15% remaining. They have been consistently showing up around the 35-40% mark this year.
"New England Wood Pellet is expanding rapidly to meet growing demand and maintain and build its position as the most competitive, lowest cost producer of premium wood pellet fuel in the Northeast. Expansion plans are underway that include the following major actions in the next 12-18 months:
* Construction of a $1.5 million fabrication plant in Jaffrey where machinery for multiple new plants will be designed, tested, refined and efficiently produced (under construction; opening in spring, 2006)
* Evaluation of new plant sites in Massachusetts and New York (underway), representing a capital investment of $16 million, with the eventual goal of increasing company-wide production to 300,000 tons annually (late 2007).
* Bulk shipping, bagging and distribution of nearly 100,000 tons annually from a Canadian pellet manufacturer, to supplement our production capability (fall, 2006)
* Increasing employment to nearly 60 full-time positions (late 2007)."
I'm glad New England Wood Pellet is fully engaged in an effort to grow this industry. Hopefully other companies in the region will form and follow suit. Many more suppliers are needed around here.
Also, Elk's comments on increasing efficiency are right on target. I did a lot of that in the late summer / fall (I'm still finding areas to improve so I consider it an ongoing effort). I realized a 30-35% reduction in heating costs over last year. It has been a warm winter, but not that warm. Another benchmark is our LP deliveries. My supplier uses an algorithm that includes prior demand patterns and heating degree days. They used to arrive consistently when my tank had 10-15% remaining. They have been consistently showing up around the 35-40% mark this year.
elkimmeg said:
I guess I dont understand how I would do a comparison then. are you saying that everyone on this board that does comparison's between there old and new system has their old system in the same area and the new one? so pellet stoves and fireplace inserts are in the same area as the furnace? I personally dont know anyone that has ever had their oil based heating system in the livingroom.
to ME what is being said is I cant compare 33mpg gas mileage on my 1st car to the 20mpg gas mileage on my 2nd car because the 1st on uses 14inch tires and has a smaller unused area in the trunk than the 2nd one with 16inch tires and a much larger unused trunk area.. They both get me 78 miles a day round trip to work which is what matters. so which one would you use? (I'll even fold down the rear seat so the trunk gets some of the heat )
The way I look at it with all the technical "include this that and dont count that" aside ( again MY way - Not the proper way) - Do I want to pay $2200 or $700 to heat the same living area regardless of weather or not an unused area is incidentally warmed
vgrund
Feeling the Heat
Continuing on the topic of supply, I also wonder whether there will be enough raw materials to supply the industry as it grows to meet demand. NEWP started with low moisture waste from furniture production but now they use a lot of "green" sawdust that is about 50% water. I wonder how much they can reasonably source. I can imagine at some point they'll start grinding logs. That would be like paying for kiln-dried firewood plus additional processing for pelletizing. Ouch.
This is not a criticism of the pellet industry... I'm just wondering about the overall sustainability of this fuel. I've seen others post similar concerns here.
Victor
This is not a criticism of the pellet industry... I'm just wondering about the overall sustainability of this fuel. I've seen others post similar concerns here.
Victor
I just sent an email to Lignetics (West Va) to see if they will be supplying more pellets to the northeast this year. I'd suggest asking all the other producers in the area as well. Here's a list to start with:
http://www.englanderstoves.com/pellet_manufacturers.html
http://www.energex.com/energex_retail.htm
http://www.pelletheat.com/
http://www.englanderstoves.com/pellet_manufacturers.html
http://www.energex.com/energex_retail.htm
http://www.pelletheat.com/
HarryBack
New Member
well, as I said....prices are up 20% as compared to this same time last year.....Im guessing the pellet companies will sell their pellets to whomever is willing to pay the highest prices....wouldnt you?
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
vgrund said:
I remember when we got some peanut hull pellets for about $75 a ton. They are high ash, but burned well in a Harman bottom feed. There is competition for every resources, but perhaps peanut hulls are relatively abundant and inexpensive compared to clean sawdust.
Hey, GW might get you some switch grass pellets soon! :roll:
HarryBack
New Member
good point...........fact is, biomass pellets of any kind will burn, some better than others tho.......manure, switch grass, wood, cellulose, who knows......good ole GW!
Webmaster said:johndough said:<<At, say, $220 per ton, 4.40 per bag… why the hell are you burning the stuff?
<<It just about equals out to $2.00/gal oil, which is what my last 2 fills were priced at.
If I read the chart you attached right, it looks to me more like $220/Ton = $1.90 a gallon
I paid $220 ton and My oil price is $2.50gal
Last year by timer, I kept my house at 56 degrees when not home and raised it to 60 at 5:30-6:30 am ( then back to 56) and raised it again to 63 at 3:00 to 8:45pm My burner uses EXACTLY 1 gallon per burn hour ( I would tell the delivery guy how much he delivered before he handed me the slip - used the time off the timer and reset it ea delivery)
Last year I used 904 gallons
This year I used 100% pellets - No Oil at all - I keep the house at 70degrees 24hrs day ( minor variations ) and so far have used 102 bags - I estimate I will need about another 35 bags to finish this year, but to make it easier, round it up to 150bags or 3 ton
So it should cost me less than $660 for pellet this year VS if I used the same amount of oil as last year I would be looking at $2,260 yes this year has been a bit warmer, but I also kept the house ALOT warmer - and yes I had to buy the stove, but with that kind of savings and extra warmth next year I Hope to be WAY ahead of the game..
and thats MY 'Splaination...
OK, so let me understand this right......comparing oil at 2.50 and pellets at 220/ton is a difference of 10% cheaper for the pellets - not including the gas to get them, etc.
So, BTU for BTU, a 10% difference. BUT, you are saving 75%.
While I agree there are a lot of factors involved, this type of experience, in my opinion, is either inaccurate, misleading or just plain rare! Perhaps you have a terrible oil burner or inefficient system.
We cannot dispute the basics - a BTU is a BTU. So if you used a monitor (freestanding) oil heater instead of the Pellet Stove you'd probably spend somewhere around the exact same $$ per year. Pellets are not saving you money....something else is.
I only clarify this so that potential buyers are well informed. Having been in the industry for 25+ years, I've heard so many miracle stories - and my feeling is that this can raise expectations. In this case, a 10% savings in BTU to BTU somehow created a 75% savings in heat! There must be more to the story.
We used to say "those pellets must be nuclear"......
Web,
I just saw this and I may have an answer........
- the guy burned 3 tons of pellets which is about 51M BTU and at about 84% efficiency, this means about 43M BTU's went to heat his house
- he also said he burned about 900 gallons of oil which is 124M BTU's BUT......his unit is a 1967 model, which, according to this site:
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/infosource/pub/home/Heating_With_Oil_Section5.cfm
means his unit is only about 60% efficient and that's BEFORE duct losses (if ducts are in attics or crawlspaces where loses don't end up heating the house)...so....overall, his unit could be only 45% efficient which means only 56M of those 124M BTU's go for heat......
- now add to this the fact that the oil heater probably heated more overall square footage because it's distributed by a duct system and the pellet stove tends to overheat one room, then shut-off without evenly heating the other rooms and it means that they're both NOT heating the same volume........so, if his pellet stove were forced to heat the entire home it would consume more than the 43M BTU's it does now (let's say, 53M BTU's) so now were comparing 53M BTU's from the pellet stove vs 56M from the oil burner and we are then saying, as you did, that it should take the same number of BTU's to heat the home regardless of heating mechanism (as long as we first take efficiency into account). But, in his example, he's still pretty close and his savings ARE as large as he's saying because his crummy 1967 oil heater has a terribly low efficiency. If we force his pellet stove to heat the same area as his oil furnace did, the pellet cost would rise about 20% but he's still got a hell of a savings by going to pellets because of the low efficiency oil burner.....
stoveguy2esw
Minister of Fire
BeGreen said:
im sure lignetics will send you a quick and accurate answer, (likely that they will have pellets running our their ears by the time early buys start hitting their door) also the first link is through our home page to the pellet fuels institute manufacturers list. their link is www.pelletheat.org we thank them as well for allowing us to link their site from ours. i have contacted several of the manufacturers on that list personally over the years and have found all very forthcoming and helpful to myself and ESW.
somebody does not know the real price of oil ! watch the news at night, howe many lives have we lost for oil , howe do you put a price on that. ITS wort avery penny i pay extra for pellets or coal , to be less dependent on oil.
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