If you were starting from the beginning, what would you do?

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New system, what should I install

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joe117

New Member
Feb 26, 2011
12
SW CT
Hello Everyone,
I've been lurking on this site for about 3 months. This is the definitely the most helpful site for any subject matter I've ever lurked on. I just purchased a home with a frozen oil boiler and frozen baseboard system. I've read 100's if not a 1000 posts in the Boiler Room and I still cant decide what to install. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I need to replace all the baseboard and water lines (using PEX I hope)
My wood is free. The house is 1.5 stories (saltbox).
I need a (oil/propane/electric) backup when I'm out for long periods

Would you:
1.purchase a 95% HE propane boiler and separate wood gasifier?
2.purchase a combo (oil or propane)/wood burner like a Tarm Excel?
3. Something else?

I added a poll to this post to for easy viewing.

Please recommend what models you would use.
Thanks - Joe
 
Be prepared for many different opinions. I like option #1 the best. Propane boiler for back up, gasifier and storage for main heating system. You should try to avoid combo units because over the long run you are loosing too much efficiency. Especially if you are using the back up often. I believe most combo units are fairly efficient on the wood side but not so good on the oil/fossil fuel side of the boiler. If you can retrofit any radiant floor heat you should do so because it will allow heat storage to be even more practical. Once you decide which way to go you still need to decide which boiler brands to use. For wood boilers I really like Froiling's and the Vigas line but there are plenty of good brands to choose from. Keep reading :)
 
Insulation and Infiltration first. Always cheaper to minimise the load.

I would rather use Natural Gas than Propane, assume like me you do not have that option.

Assuming you have Propane and use it for other purposes as well I would go with Propane for back up.

Geothermal etc is not logical for me, might be for you.

And I agree with the distribution system, lowest temp works best, radiant first choice, radiators then forced air/baseboard.
 
I purchased the Tarm Excel 2000 but if I had it to do over I would get the Solo and a seperate oil/gas backup unit. They have them that are direct venting so adding a flue should not be an issue. I went with the combo unit because I only had one flue and thought that was my only option. Now that I know more I'd go the seperate route.
Also if you have to replace the baseboard anyway there are some that are better suited to lower temps. I find that with strorage, when I'm firing I get temps from 165 to 190. (for comparison when I run on oil the temp are around 190) When I draw from storage I might go as low as 140 when I get home and build another fire. It will still transfer heat at 140 just not very well.
I see you're in SW CT. Drop me a PM I'm in Colchester.
 
seperate units. Gasser w/storage plus fossil fuel unit.

My thoughts are to look into a staple up radiant? Or low temp radiators, or some kind of design for low temps. Much better use of storage.
 
I built 2 years ago and went with all radiant. I have a triangle tube propane boiler which is highly efficient. I am in the process of deciding which gassifier and how much storage to add. I am down the the effecta and froling-probably leaning strongly toward the froling. The are expensive but from what I have seen it will be worth every penny.
 
Radiant heat could be done on first floor but not really practical to install in an existing second floor which is mostly hardwood. I wonder if I could combine the two? I plan on living there till is time for my dirt nap, so I really want what will save me the most money in the long run but not be too troublesome or cost over $15,000 for boiler(s) and storage.
 
Thank you guys, I'm easy to convince. I like the plug and play of single unit but I think I'll go 2 unit. Here is my pros and cons of two separate boilers. Please add to it if whatever I've missed which is probably a lot.

Pro - One is down the other works (unless I'm having a really bad day)
Pro - Much better efficiency with a LP boiler (NG not available)

Con- Have to heat the water in the Boiler 1 when the Boiler 2 is running
Con- Extra controls not as homeowner friendly

Price would probably be about the same based on web searches
 
joe117 said:
Radiant heat could be done on first floor but not really practical to install in an existing second floor which is mostly hardwood. I wonder if I could combine the two? I plan on living there till is time for my dirt nap, so I really want what will save me the most money in the long run but not be too troublesome or cost over $15,000 for boiler(s) and storage.


i have both. i installed staple up in my kitchen later. I got baseboard all thru the house. Best of both worlds I suppose. Come home late in the afternoon. Tank is low on temp, house a little cool. Start a fire, within 45 minutes i got 165 water going thru baseboards, 60 minutes and its pushing 180. House warms up quick. Than the radiant will get back up to temp(140f) and helps maintain. i plan on finishing my 1st floor with all radiant. Might put low temp rads upstairs, but we never turn the T-stats above 63 upstairs. Don't see the sense in it. Like it cool when we sleep. Plus the heat rising thing, keeps the upstairs warm enough.

hopefully "Heaterman" will chime in. He's got a lot of good advice/experience on doing stuff right, and keeping it simple
 
1. induced draft gasifier as primary heat source - Tarm Solo Innova would be the choice from our line-up. The Innova is a great boiler and it will be difficult to meet your budget with the Froling.

2. pressurized storage if you have floor space limitations and are not too interested in heating domestic hot water in the Summer

3. un-pressurized storage if you have the floor space and/or have ceiling height limitations (under seven feet); and if you are interested in using wood to heat domestic hot water in the Summer and/or incorporating solar thermal.

4. If you have two flues, mid-efficiency oil boiler for back up.

5. if you only have one flue, power-vented, mid-efficiencly propane boiler for back up.

6. Replace all the baseboard with panel rads so you can take advantage of lower tank temps when heating off of stored heat. From your description of the floors, and based on my experience in my own home, I don't think you will be able to run much lower temp water in your floors than you would in over-sized panel rads. Use panel rads with integrated thermostatic valves so that each radiator can be it's own zone. Will also allow you to use a Grundfos Alpha pump which will allow you to minimize your electrical consumption.

7. Build a wood shed and get your wood put up now. We all tend to get pretty turned on by cool boiler features and tweaking our own systems (can't help ourselves :) ), but the single most important thing you can do to maximize burn efficiency and boiler longevity is burn dry wood.

8. Do what you can to tighten and insulate the envelope of your house (should have been point number one as Como says).

have fun!
 
I will look into those panels. I'm stuck with single flue so thats why I thought Super HE propane or oil backup made sense. I read somewhere here that power venting a reg boiler was troublesome. My goal is ease of use and as little parts to break or burn out as possible. That being said, if it costs $500 to power vent a boiler and I need to replace the vent every 5 years ($100 a year), thats probably worth the small savings in fuel and big upfront costs of Super HE boilers. hmmmmm
 
Hey, I like that Grundfos circulator. They should all be automatic like that. So if I did panel rads all around, I can adjust each room via the panels thermostat. Thats pretty cool in warming kind of way.

If each radiator "turns on" when heat is called for, what happens when the water temp from storage is only 140, then 185 after the gasser does its thing?
It seems like a lot of variables to work synergistic as a whole house heating system.
Am I wrong?

Does anyone here use heating PEX for lower temp setups?
 
joe117 said:
I need a (oil/propane/electric) backup when I'm out for long periods

Thanks - Joe

What do you mean by long periods? If this is like maybe a week when you are gone on vacation then You could go with a very minimal heat source or if you are gone for like 16hrs some days then you could use more storage and a minimal back up. A cheap lp would work good for a minimal backup. Maybe even a tankless waterheater.
If you are gone allot and no one will be there to tend a fire then a high efficiently oil boiler might be a better choice.
With proper plumbing you won't be heating the other boiler if it isn't running.
leaddog
 
A few thoughts; if you had a freeze up situation your going to need to verify all the plumbing lines as well as the heating lines, a simple pressure test should reveal if you have ruptured pipes in areas you cant see (unfortunately you may have more work than you think) , while your at it take all the toilets off their mounts & turn the bowl over to inspect for cracks as well as any other plumbing fixture that may have retained water during the freeze up. Appliances such as dish & clothes washers will need the pump & tubing inspected/tested as well. After that it is time to check the floor drains with an inspection camera to see if the P trap has cracked, if there is a bath tub/shower you will need to check those P traps as well. Not trying to discourage you just trying to make sure you cover all the bases. Forgot the pressure sytem if this is in a rural area.

If the oil boiler tests out as working & safe to operate I suggest you think about hooking it back up as I doubt that 15K is going to cover the cost of 2 new boilers plus the install repair/replacement of pipes/emitters & any thing else you may find in need of replacement due to the freeze up. Might just give you=r pocket book a chance to recover before buying a new boiler or 2 if that turns out to be necessary. Hope this helps. BTW two separate boilers plumbed in parallel not in series gets my vote long term.
 
Thanks for the tips regarding freezing tips. I had most covered. Didn't think about second floor tub p-trap. I'm putting in new appliances so I'm not worried about them. My $15k doesn't include new radiators and plumbing just the boiler systems with storage. I am also having a new well put in. When you say no pressurized storage in a rural area, is that due to well pressure(30ish) not city water water(80ish)?
 
Don't think I refered to pressurized storage, which BTW I am totally in favor of, as much as you can fit in, with enough psi to satisfy you without violating code. IMHO every solid fuel boiler (wood in this case) should have ample storage, either built in like a Garn or added on like western european boilers. Everyone that is doing the burn & smoulder thing with no/inadequate storage is missing the biggest advantage of a solid fuel boiler as well as creating a danger everytime they overfire their boiler & turning what in some cases are high end boilers indeed into creosote productions machines. Which may violate their warranty as well. I don't recommend that you copy that, rather take steps to avoid it = ample storage.

OK there is my rant for the day, gotta have at least 1/day....lol keeps me sane sort of....I did mention your pressure system in the house, pressure tank etc for domestic water, that will need to be checked also for cracks due to freezing, look carefully at the tappings in the bottom of the tank also for fittings that may have cracked.
 
When you say no pressurized storage in a rural area, is that due to well pressure(30ish) not city water water(80ish)?
I think he was referring to checking your well tank and or pump if cellar located for freeze damage. Storage is not dependent on supply water pressure. Any expansion tanks will need replacement as well. Pex tubing to emitters works fine. I use PAP as it requires less hangers and wont get saggy. I also insulate the tubing on the supply side throughout the house.
Go for low temp panel rads on second floor with the thermostatic valves. If rooms require more than one emitter they can be piped in series.

Number one on your list is an accurate room by room heat loss analysis. With that information you can size your system and the emitters. First floor staple up usually requires 145* water. Oh yeah no rugs either.

Will
 
Let me say I really appreciate all the help from everyone here. Hot water heater is electric,so its fine. I will check the well expansion tank though. I'm 99% sure I going with a good gasser, storage, mid-eff propane backup ,regular radiant floor heat on first floor and panels on second.

Would it make sense to have the wood boiler with 100% or more of the btu I need. If I get a big one wont it just heat the water quicker?
 
Short answer is yes it will heat your water quicker. It should however be more than 100% of your max heating demand, as when the weather gets cold a stays cold you will have to stay awake feeding it, no rest for you or the boiler when the weather turns bad if you size just to your anticipated max. You will want to be larger & have storage so you can fire the boiler when it fits your schedule & rest when it fits your schedule as well. You want the boiler/storage to work for you not the other way around.
 
TARM SALES GUY or anyone, Why does it matter if you use pressurized vs non pressurized storage for making DHW in summer? If there is enough storage to keep the boiler from idleing and heat is being transferred through a exchanger what makes the difference?
 
2. pressurized storage if you have floor space limitations and are not too interested in heating domestic hot water in the Summer

3. un-pressurized storage if you have the floor space and/or have ceiling height limitations (under seven feet); and if you are interested in using wood to heat domestic hot water in the Summer and/or incorporating solar thermal.

I don't understand why un-pressurized storage is preferred over pressurized by the Tarm Sales Guy either.
 
Well..............If I could start with a clean slate.............and after all avenues of tightening the building envelope have been exhausted.......

Hands down it would be panel radiators piped via a home run system. They take up far less wall space than baseboard and are easily sized to accommodate low water temperatures.

www.hydronicalternatives.com

They provide proportional heat matched to the heat loss of the space they are in at all times rather than cycling on/off with a typical thermostat. Very simple to install and hook up using 1/2" pex or PAP tubing. We did a remodel/addition to a guys house about 3 or 4 years ago using panel rads in the existing part of the house and radiant floor in the new part.. He told me that if he had known how nice the panel rads worked and what comfort level they provided, they would have skipped the in floor. You could throw a loop or two under the floor of the bathroom or other hard surface areas if you wanted along with the rads of course. In a bathroom, I'll just tale the return from the panel rad and loop it through the floor joists, allowing it to shed a little heat on the way back to the manifold. The thermostat on the panel rad controls the floor and the rad in that case. Works really well.

The main issue with your choice of the backup heat source would be availability of a chimney. If you have one that's in good shape I'd probably recommend an atmospheric vented oil or propane boiler. You'll have less maintenance and far less cost if anything ever breaks down on it. A high efficiency unit would be cost prohibited seeing as it will seldom run. If you have a gas stove/dryer/water heater then it makes sense to go with a gas boiler.
If no chimney is available then a high efficiency propane unit would be my first recommendation. Side wall venting an oil fired boiler has never turned out well in the long run for me. Too many "issues" with them as far as odor alongside the house, staining, maintenance and reliability.

Send me a PM if you need more info on this widely unknown method of heating. It's a shame that more people don't explore panel rads here in this country. In Europe they are the standard rather than the exception. Very comfortable, very reliable, virtually no maintenance.
 
Heaterman, Do you think it's possible to yank out the slantfin elements and replace the elements with panal radiation?
I'm thinking of retaining the existing fintube covering just replacing and re-piping the insides.
 
chuck172 said:
2. pressurized storage if you have floor space limitations and are not too interested in heating domestic hot water in the Summer

3. un-pressurized storage if you have the floor space and/or have ceiling height limitations (under seven feet); and if you are interested in using wood to heat domestic hot water in the Summer and/or incorporating solar thermal.

I don't understand why un-pressurized storage is preferred over pressurized by the Tarm Sales Guy either.

sorry, guys, was a bit rushed when I wrote that so did not go into a lot of details. OK, so those are general rules of thumb based on the following:

Pressurized storage tanks do not normally have domestic hot water coils in them. Most options being used in North American are simple steel tanks, either factory fabricated for the purpose or modified LP tanks, etc. In most cases these tanks do not have a heat exchange coil in them and it is difficult to add one. This means that the heat exchange for domestic hot water production has to take place outside of the tank, typically this is done with an indirect water heater. The heat exchange coil that is built into the indirect is sized assuming 180 degree supply water temperature. This is not a problem when you are heating the indirect with the wood boiler or fossil fuel boiler, but when you are heating the indirect from storage, you will be using lower temperatures than that and the performance of the indirect drops off quickly. Even if the tank starts out at 180 degrees (or more), once you start to get below, say 160 degrees (150?), you can't expect much hot water production from the indirect. This is all perfectly practical, but it does mean that you need to fire the boiler frequently enough to maintain high enough tank temperatures to meet your domestic hot water demand when you are running off of storage for a significant portion of the time, like in Summer.

An unpressurized tank system normally incorporates a heat exchange coil for domestic hot water production. It is easy to 'oversize' this coil so that it has enough surface area to produce acceptable amounts of domestic hot water at lower thermal storage tank temperatures, say down to 120 degrees tank temp. This coil is normally supplied directly from the well or city cold water supply and feeds into a more traditional water heater. The cold incoming water is heated, or pre-heated, before it gets to the water heater and the water heater only fires when the pre-heat from the thermal storage tank is insufficient. In an ideal, but expensive, scenario, the in-tank domestic hot water coil feeds a normal indirect water heater. This allows you to pre-heat the incoming cold water as described and simultaneously heat it via the coil built into the indirect. This gives even more heat exchange surface area and so allows for even lower tank temps. One of the things that people are looking for when they are thinking about heating domestic hot water with the wood boiler in the Summer, in my experience, is long coast times between wood boiler firings. I would suggest that the unpressurized tank system I described means the difference between firing once or twice per week and firing two or three times a week with the pressurized system I described.

There are of course many variables including storage volume and how much hot water is needed (retired couple or four kids and a ton of laundry?). Also, there are clearly other options like shell-in-tube or flat plate heat exchangers that can be used with pressurized storage to take advantage of lower tank temperatures. And, of course, if you are living in Europe :), you can just buy a pressurized storage tank(s) that have over sized coils built in!

As I say, none of this is a hard and fast rule about pressurized vs unpressurized storage, but given the market as we see it and the technology available here, I think they are good rules of thumbs. I will be very interested to hear others' thoughts on this, it is something that is very important to the industry and consumer and something that we continue to struggle with. Chris.
 
chuck172 said:
Heaterman, Do you think it's possible to yank out the slantfin elements and replace the elements with panal radiation?
I'm thinking of retaining the existing fintube covering just replacing and re-piping the insides.

No. Panel rads will not fit or even work well under BB cover. Different animal entirely. Baseboard heat is accomplished 100% via convective airflow over the element whereas panel rads will deliver heat about 70/30 convective/radiant. Major difference in comfort level.
Panel rads with thermostatic radiator valves are "on" all the time, throttling up and down to match the room load. Some flow is nearly always present. Baseboard on the other hand is typically on/off operation. A variable speed pump like a Wilo ECO would be ideal for the panel rads. Baseboard too for that matter, if you have multiple zones.
 
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