In response to Sugars question on Europas gasification techniques.

[Fsappo]

I think it will be an interesting comparison. Maunufacturers should be doing this anyways. There must be greater efficiencies we can expect from pellet heat as the market booms as it currently is. The Europa sounds promising... I would like to see on in the body of a P68 though, cause the styling is not a selling point at this time. Excellent thread!
Anka

Yeah, he has been hearing that for years. That stove aint gonna win any beauty contests. We'll keep hammering on him

 

[Delta-T]

If you look at the compared efficiencies of the Paromax (Europa) stove 86% and a non certified stove 70.5. you see a 20% difference (their chart) but you and I have to assume one figure is stretched one way and the other another way for enhancement purposes.
Anyway, the gap would have to be significantly narrowed using a EPA certified pellet stove .

94.9% anyhow, it's a non issue. There will always be a hand full of people saying someone is lying. Let's see if Craig goes for the race and I wont have to keep posting" Claude isnt lying" comments. The proof, as they say, will be in the pudding.

I LOVE pudding. This will be like THUNDERDOME! 2 stove enter, 1 stove leave! Master blaster runs bartertown.

 

[Fsappo]

Ok, tell Craig exactly what would satisfy you and pook and if he decides to go ahead with it, he will take it under advisement

 

[Fsappo]

It was developed by Claude Lapoint and his company , Dell Point. The manufacturing rights were sold to FPI in order to increase distribution thru their existing dealer network. With FPI in control, the quality went down the pooper. Claude approached the other members of Dellpoint to see if they wanted to buy back the rights and go back to making a quality product. They did not want to. Claude formed a new corp, called Paromax, after the names of his children, Pat, Roxanne and Maxine and started producing the stove again as a family.

When FPI had the product, they could not get their version of the stove to burn corn. Instead of finding out why, they just put a big X thru the corn button and sold it pellet only.

I've got an original dell point Europa that is 5 years old. The burn pots NEVER in 5 years has clogged for any customer that I have been in contact with, and we have had ZERO burn pots need to be replaced. It's also not magic. It's a tube with holes in it.

No clinkers with pellets, virtually no clinkers with corn, nothing to scrap or vacuum. Just empty the ash pan. Thats 5 years of experience. Maybe these pots only last 5.5 years and will all poop the fan in 6 months. I'm guessing not.

The stove ships with a pellet pot and a corn pot and burns both fuels very nicely. Doesnt Pook have a dealer close by where he can go take a look at one of these?

 

[MCPO]

I just talked to a dealership located about 60 miles away who evidently has had one in stock for a while and according to his office girl he wants to discount it to get rid of it . I didn`t discuss price. The reason stated he is into the Enviro brand. I was hoping he had one running in the showroom but no dice. The one he has is new and unused. He said to come over and look at it and bring a truck.
I`d want to see one in operation first.

 

[smoke show]

sub'd for interest/entertainment

 

[Fsappo]

I just talked to a dealership located about 60 miles away who evidently has had one in stock for a while and according to his office girl he wants to discount it to get rid of it . I didn`t discuss price. The reason stated he is into the Enviro brand. I was hoping he had one running in the showroom but no dice. The one he has is new and unused. He said to come over and look at it and bring a truck.
I`d want to see one in operation first.

I'd make sure it was NOT one of the ones made by FPI. If it is, dont bother. If it was one of the older Dell Point models or newer Paromax models, ask them if they will unpack it and burn it for you if they want you to buy it.

From what it sounds like, and if they are a Regency dealer, they had the Regency experience with it, are disgusted and may not even be aware that the original people are back making it.

Not a knock on FPI, I LOVE their wood and gas products. They just dont make pellet stoves. Even now, their GF55 is made by Enviro

 

[Fsappo]

Still waiting to see if Craig is gonna go for this

 

[MCPO]

i inquired 3 ? yrs ago from local dealer who discounted [40%?] a showroom model which heated the place & when i asked him what he heated with after the europa he mentioned a different stove. thereafter i learned the combo unit was replaced by a pellet only unit by whatever manufacturer. still, the dealer opted not to heat his place with the europa, thus i figured the system might be problematic over time as per my prior reasonings. kinda reminds me of the story of the rabbit & the hare...maggie... the essence of the system is the patented burnpot i think

Could they be too pricey and therefore slow selling for the average dealer?
I found some bad press from a user or two at Iburncorn.com but that could have been the older units.
It seems to be a mystery product.
The technology employed in it`s burnpot method is interesting for sure but it isn`t rocket science or anything new. It does make me wonder why others haven`t employed it. Could be the benefit isn`t worth the cost, I don`t really know.
For about 8 yrs I used a European (Franco- Belge) catalytic oil stove in my finished basement . Basically it was just a simple pot burner that #2 fuel oil dripped into and burned dirty but as that dirty smoke rose up thru a stainless steel configuation (series of 6" high blades) it produced a round blue flame identical to that on a gas cook stove and was absolutely smoke/soot free. I suspect the technology to be similar regardless of what fuel is burned.
However I always felt that it used a bit more oil than the zoned baseboard heat would have but I like the ambience of a stove. Prior to that I burned cordwood down there but thats not gonna happen again.

 

[MCPO]

had to bump this so other stovemakers may respond to the air ratio claims which do make sense.
we got a replacement exhaust blower for an old 25pdvc & it was a different,bigger,more wattage motor. englander ASSURED US IT WAS TESTED & FINE BUT NOW WE WONDER IF THE EXTRA BLOW DIDNT HELP englander QUALIFY AS epa approved due to extra air & 35-1 ratio?....maggie

I`m puzzled. The dell Pont uses a very low 8/10-1 ratio , and exceeds EPA. Yet, you wonder if the new larger exhaust blower with 35-1 ratio helps your Englander qualify?

 

[Fsappo]

Craig! Are you gonna do the Biomass Smackdown challenge?

 

[MCPO]

had to bump this so other stovemakers may respond to the air ratio claims which do make sense.
we got a replacement exhaust blower for an old 25pdvc & it was a different,bigger,more wattage motor. englander ASSURED US IT WAS TESTED & FINE BUT NOW WE WONDER IF THE EXTRA BLOW DIDNT HELP englander QUALIFY AS epa approved due to extra air & 35-1 ratio?....maggie

I`m puzzled. The dell Pont uses a very low 8/10-1 ratio , and exceeds EPA. Yet, you wonder if the new larger exhaust blower with 35-1 ratio helps your Englander qualify?

new 25pdvc qualifies for tax credit & claims 75% efficiency. i saw 1 last year & the burnpot had holes on the side different from my old burnpot. low air ratio seems good to me & i was hoping eng would write in with some facts for commparison. i wonder about vagaries but do know my new blower motor is bigger & draws more power...maggie[/quot


Maggie, I think you are confusing approved with certified. I think all pellet stoves are approved since they are exempt from having to be certified. The Englander 25pdv and 25pdvc are EPA approved , not EPA certified .Their 25 PAH and 25 EP models are EPA certified which means the particulate matter they give off is less than 7.5 grams per hr.(taken off the top of my head) However EPA certification is only a part of the sum needed to reach a high net efficiency. EPA certification only means the stove produces a clean burn (under certain tested conditions) However a less than optimal heat exchanger in a pellet stove can wipe out any gain made in a more efficient burn.
The Dell Point burn system (LOW AIR RATIO) makes a lot of sense (at least in theory) since those exhaust gases and heat get to stay in the stove longer and little heat escapes up the chimney as atested to and most probably due to the low air/fuel ratio.
It also must utilize a very good heat exchanger design and materials to be able to quickly absorb that heat on one side and extract (blow) it off the other side and out the front holes.

 

[Fsappo]

Right, the way I understand it, the 35-1 air ratiot allows these stoves to be EPA Exempt. What throws me for a loop, is the Regency GF55 is listed as EPA Certified. If it is based on efficiency, without lab equipment here, it just doesnt add up. Just like I wouldnt need testing equipment to know I was driving in a Ford Focus and then in a Ford GT. A nice 3 way comparison will be a good deed for our industry and for our customers out there.

 

[Fsappo]

Just spend 48 hours using a mix of switch grass pellets and hardwood PA pellets to see how it effected the burn. Same heat exchanger temps, ash extraction had to be brought up 2 notches. More ash, and a dirtier glass. I'd be thrilled if we can get that stove dialed in to burn switch grass pellets 24/7

 

[jtakeman]

Just spend 48 hours using a mix of switch grass pellets and hardwood PA pellets to see how it effected the burn. Same heat exchanger temps, ash extraction had to be brought up 2 notches. More ash, and a dirtier glass. I'd be thrilled if we can get that stove dialed in to burn switch grass pellets 24/7

IMO, You should be able to. I have an Enviro Omega and it will run switch grass no problem. I ran mine for a week on switch grass. Except for dirty glass you would think it was burning pellets. Granted Bad ones, But besides the mounds of gritty ash and raisin sized stones, It throw nice heat. Never stirred the pot or had to even open the door. I just filled the hopper.

Sounds like they need to have a stirrer or mixer in the burn pot.

How well does it burn corn?

jay

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

had to bump this so other stovemakers may respond to the air ratio claims which do make sense.
we got a replacement exhaust blower for an old 25pdvc & it was a different,bigger,more wattage motor. englander ASSURED US IT WAS TESTED & FINE BUT NOW WE WONDER IF THE EXTRA BLOW DIDNT HELP englander QUALIFY AS epa approved due to extra air & 35-1 ratio?....maggie

I`m puzzled. The dell Pont uses a very low 8/10-1 ratio , and exceeds EPA. Yet, you wonder if the new larger exhaust blower with 35-1 ratio helps your Englander qualify?

new 25pdvc qualifies for tax credit & claims 75% efficiency. low air ratio seems good to me & i was hoping eng would write in with some facts for commparison. i wonder about vagaries but do know my new blower motor is bigger & draws more power...maggie

pook?

 

[jtakeman]

had to bump this so other stovemakers may respond to the air ratio claims which do make sense.
we got a replacement exhaust blower for an old 25pdvc & it was a different,bigger,more wattage motor. englander ASSURED US IT WAS TESTED & FINE BUT NOW WE WONDER IF THE EXTRA BLOW DIDNT HELP englander QUALIFY AS epa approved due to extra air & 35-1 ratio?....maggie

I`m puzzled. The dell Pont uses a very low 8/10-1 ratio , and exceeds EPA. Yet, you wonder if the new larger exhaust blower with 35-1 ratio helps your Englander qualify?

new 25pdvc qualifies for tax credit & claims 75% efficiency. low air ratio seems good to me & i was hoping eng would write in with some facts for commparison. i wonder about vagaries but do know my new blower motor is bigger & draws more power...maggie

pook?

No it's maggie. ;-)

 

[Fsappo]

Just spend 48 hours using a mix of switch grass pellets and hardwood PA pellets to see how it effected the burn. Same heat exchanger temps, ash extraction had to be brought up 2 notches. More ash, and a dirtier glass. I'd be thrilled if we can get that stove dialed in to burn switch grass pellets 24/7

IMO, You should be able to. I have an Enviro Omega and it will run switch grass no problem. I ran mine for a week on switch grass. Except for dirty glass you would think it was burning pellets. Granted Bad ones, But besides the mounds of gritty ash and raisin sized stones, It throw nice heat. Never stirred the pot or had to even open the door. I just filled the hopper.

Sounds like they need to have a stirrer or mixer in the burn pot.

How well does it burn corn?

jay

Burning the grass pellets are easy. Getting the settings dialed in to it is doing it at 95% efficiency just takes tinkering with the settings to handle the differences between batches. I have an AES Countryside with a stirrer that could burn gravel, as well as all different biomass using the brute force method of alot of air thru the burn pot and a the stirrer just mashing stuff up. My goal is to burn grass pellets via "gasification" even though thats the wrong term.

Now, the Europa burns corn like a champ. Blue flame, no clinkers..instead of emptying the ash pan once a month, like on pellets, I need to do it every week to 10 days. A small matter.

 

[Fsappo]

had to bump this so other stovemakers may respond to the air ratio claims which do make sense.
we got a replacement exhaust blower for an old 25pdvc & it was a different,bigger,more wattage motor. englander ASSURED US IT WAS TESTED & FINE BUT NOW WE WONDER IF THE EXTRA BLOW DIDNT HELP englander QUALIFY AS epa approved due to extra air & 35-1 ratio?....maggie

I`m puzzled. The dell Pont uses a very low 8/10-1 ratio , and exceeds EPA. Yet, you wonder if the new larger exhaust blower with 35-1 ratio helps your Englander qualify?

new 25pdvc qualifies for tax credit & claims 75% efficiency. low air ratio seems good to me & i was hoping eng would write in with some facts for commparison. i wonder about vagaries but do know my new blower motor is bigger & draws more power...maggie

pook?

No it's maggie. ;-)

maggie & the maggots feeding off pook's corpse!
this thread inspired me to install a light dimmer on the exhaust blower & HOLY MOLY! definitely dont need all its power @ low feed to keep it running. i also installed a cover plate on the burnpot to simulate a baffle & get better air mix & seems good so far. i burned a 2" thick novel on top of the baffleplate & took a peek in the stove to see. as i opened the door, the flame formed on the book but when i closed the door the flame burned DOWN INTO THE BURNPOT FROM WHICH THE AIR IS COMING! the book though not visibly burning was gassifying & the gases were descending down into the burnpot! i think...maggie

Sheesh, your a bit of a mad scientist. You'd get along great with Claude. Very interesting experiment your ran there

 

[jtakeman]

Just spend 48 hours using a mix of switch grass pellets and hardwood PA pellets to see how it effected the burn. Same heat exchanger temps, ash extraction had to be brought up 2 notches. More ash, and a dirtier glass. I'd be thrilled if we can get that stove dialed in to burn switch grass pellets 24/7

IMO, You should be able to. I have an Enviro Omega and it will run switch grass no problem. I ran mine for a week on switch grass. Except for dirty glass you would think it was burning pellets. Granted Bad ones, But besides the mounds of gritty ash and raisin sized stones, It throw nice heat. Never stirred the pot or had to even open the door. I just filled the hopper.

Sounds like they need to have a stirrer or mixer in the burn pot.

How well does it burn corn?

jay

Burning the grass pellets are easy. Getting the settings dialed in to it is doing it at 95% efficiency just takes tinkering with the settings to handle the differences between batches. I have an AES Countryside with a stirrer that could burn gravel, as well as all different biomass using the brute force method of alot of air thru the burn pot and a the stirrer just mashing stuff up. My goal is to burn grass pellets via "gasification" even though thats the wrong term.

Now, the Europa burns corn like a champ. Blue flame, no clinkers..instead of emptying the ash pan once a month, like on pellets, I need to do it every week to 10 days. A small matter.

Love to see that stove in action!
Get them to make a Furnace that allows for ducting to be connected to it. I might consider it. I have to have it in the basement.

 

[Fsappo]

I'm tryin I'm tryin. He wants to release a smaller stove and the insert first. May be 2 or 3 years before the furnaces and boilers come out

 

[MCPO]

Is maggie taken over Pooks body? Maybe I`m a bit naive but it just occurred to me that Pook han`t been around since maggie surfaced.

 

[Fsappo]

It's pretty obvious to a lot of folks, Gio. But pook is behaving for now so I guess the PTB are letting it slide

 

[MasterOfFire]

Whats the air to fuel ration on the greenfire 55 stove? I own one and from what i understand it is EPA certified not compliant like most other pellet stoves.In this thread it was mentioned that the dellpoint stove is the only epa certified stove in the industry? Where do i find a list of certified stoves? I have had the stove for 1 full heating season so far and all is great. Thanks

 

[Fsappo]

I'll try to find out what the ratio is on Monday when Regency opens. The GF-55 is a great stove. They do have it listed as EPA Certified. I can tell you that the GF55 doesnt "appear" to be any more efficient than any other of the typical pellet stoves out there.