Insulated liner or not? And install advice...

[tickbitty]

I know there have been many threads on this subject of liners but I am adding another. In this one there were interesting points raised https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/42235/
but I want to throw my question in as well. I am getting closer to actually getting a stove and feel I will have to order my liner as well, and plan my install.

I have a one story brick masonry house that would require about a 15' liner to direct connect (it's 17'3" from top to bottom actually but I figure you subtract a little for the actual stove. The house was built in 1953 and the INTERIOR chimney about 3/4 to one side of the house is all masonry with clay tile liner for the top 10 feet, and it is large clay tile liner, about 11" square. I asked the local stove dealer that gave me a pricequote on a stove to give me a price on liner and install, just wanted to see what all that would be. He quoted me about $1500 for liner and install and said that $760 of that was for the liner alone, UNinsulated, I believe. He basically indicated that it's a waste to insulate the liner on an interior chimney. When I asked if it wouldn't improve the draft he seemed to assume my chimney was in awful condition and kinda steered away from that part of the conversation.

So my questions are again

1) Is it crucial for safety and to make the stove operate at it's best to insulate even a liner on an interior chimney? And worth the expense and trouble?

2) I was thinking of having a handyman friend do the install because he has tools and common sense BUT no experience with woodstoves or the like. Would a 6" liner end up swimming in a 11" flue and would that be a bad thing if it's touching various sides and etc on it's way down? Or should it be centered and is there a good way to do that?

I DO want to do this safely and do it right. It seems the most experienced (and expensive) professionals in town feel insulating the liner an unnecessary expense. Does anyone here concur or no? Thanks in advance for the advice. I am off to find my liner quote! (I believe it will be 6" this time)

 

[mellow]

I recommend an insulated liner for any install unless you have had a sweep come out with camera and look at your tiles and can certify they are in great condition. For your install I would do a rigid insulated liner, it is a straight shot down if I remember correctly. Just about any handy person with access to this site can install an insert and liner. Usually the top cap will help keep the liner centered in the middle of the flue.

Btw, that install price is SKY HIGH!

 

[bsearcey]

I'm no expert, but I just did an install myself and based on all the research I did you can install it without insulation. With it being an interior chimney it is insulated enough to maintain a temp that helps keep creosote buildup down. It should draft fine too since the liner matches your stove diameter and temps will stay constant. I have an exterior chimney, but did not use an insulated liner per the advice of several local chimney sweeps. I did stuff mineral wool insulation down (approx 2 feet) around the top of the liner and then sealed the whole thing of with furnace cement. Everything seems to be working great. I'm going to give it a while longer before I go up and check to see how everything is going. If you have someone who can help you install then do it that way. You'll save a bundle.

 

[bsearcey]

Here is where I ordered my liner from:

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=307)

I just got the Flex King and not the Pro.

They have a 6"x20' for 291.60. They also don't charge for shipping with the round diameters under a certain length. Check the site out they've got everything you need for the liner and from what I found some of the best pricing. They were also great to work with and quick.

 

[tickbitty]

Thanks, I agree, that price seemed high to me too. Just thought I would ask what they run since I will be paying a buddy to help me do it anyway but didn't want to end up paying him the same as if I got chimney pros to do it. He will have to cut out part of the vestal damper so that was worth a lot to me, I just don't have the tools to do that kind of thing. I guess I should refer my friend here. There's an install video on "this old house" but it has someone clamping on and pulling the liner up from the bottom! From everything I have seen here, they go top down!

I checked out the condition of the chimney myself with camera, pics up and down and the tile lined part is in great shape, but in the few feet below the tiles, where it widens out for the damper it's just brick and there are a few spalled or cracked bricks on the interior of the chimney that were noted by the sweep that we had out a couple years ago.

 

[Wet1]

I would go insulated. You'll have a better draft, less creosote buildup, and a safer install. In fact, if you have exposed brick, you MUST go with an insulated liner to meet code (and sleep at night!) Your dealer doesn't want to insulate because he doesn't want to bother with it. Contact "TheHeatElement" here on the board. He sells a SS liner kit that's already insulated and it can quickly be slid down your chimney. He's very reasonable and ships quickly. Installing the liner in an 11" flue is a very easy job, so you should consider doing it yourself, or having a friend give you a hand if you're not handy.

 

[weatherguy]

Wet1 beat me to it, contact him and you'll be happy with his price and you'll be happy once its installed, sounds like a pretty easy job. Good luck

 

[tickbitty]

Thanks, I am already in touch with our friend from the thread here, and I'm confident he will give me a good liner price (he already did but it was when I was looking at a different size etc). I was just curious why the installer was so adamant about not needing insulation. I guess I will go with insulated then as long as the price isn't prohibitive.

 

[Wet1]

If your existing chimney isn't completely lined now with clay tiles, you absolutely MUST do an insulated liner... AT ANY COST! Don't worry about the small price difference, your family's lives are worth more than a couple hundred dollars!

 

[tickbitty]

If your existing chimney isn't completely lined now with clay tiles, you absolutely MUST do an insulated liner... AT ANY COST! Don't worry about the small price difference, your family's lives are worth more than a couple hundred dollars!

It's got about 10' - 11' of tile liner and then it widens out for the firebox/grate. So it's just the fireplace, damper at top, and then a foot or two where it is "large" and is masonry tapering up to the liner up above the damper. I'm pretty convinced now about the insulation, but curious, is that not normal for the liner to taper open into the fireplace like that? I thought all chimneys did that, basically.

pics down and up chimney (second one is above damper)

 

[tickbitty]

Oh also, one further comment/question ---
I thought maybe one additional reason I would need insulated is that the 6" liner will really be floating in my large flue with a lot of air space around it. I imagine that's not a terrible thing? But up at the top I figured the temperature differential would be really big. So with that in mind, would something like the Insulflex liner (insulation already wrapped around it) be fine, or would I really be better off with a bulkier self-wrap kit to take up additional flue space? (It's an 11.5" square.)

I just want to be sure I order the right stuff. The top of the chimney is kind of cemented and not totally flat, and the chimney is rectangular containing a second separate flue which I guess was for the oil furnace which is on it's last legs and was just replaced by a heat pump in the attic - and a woodstove up and coming.) I am not sure whether to order (from the heat element who has given me some quotes) the flue tile cover or regular flashing.
This is the top of the chimney, the bricks there are just at the top and the first tile liner is just at the bottom there. The other flue is over to the right. I have had a cap on just the fireplace chimney part but not the other. There are some spalling bricks on the exterior of the chimney that show signs it may need some work in the future. Would the regular flashing type attach OK in what you see here or do I need something else?

 

[bsearcey]

Yes. The tile flue stops when it gets close to the firebox (maybe 2 or 3 feet above the damper). Personally I still think you are ok without the liner, but you can never be too safe when dealing with a metal box burning wood in your house. I chose not to based on (in my opinion) expert advice. I have about a 27' run so I wasn't concerned about draft. Also in central VA it doesn't get nearly as cold for as long as other areas, therefore, I wasn't worried about the liner cooling down enough by the cold infiltrating the brick on the outside of my chimney. Speaking of VA where are you? I just installed my stove (FA224) and the thing is great. It heats my whole house (1800 sq. ft.). I fed it this morning before work and 9.5 hours later I still had a good bed of coals to throw on a couple pieces of kindling to get things going again. You'll really enjoy your new stove.

 

[tickbitty]

I recommend an insulated liner for any install unless you have had a sweep come out with camera and look at your tiles and can certify they are in great condition. For your install I would do a rigid insulated liner, it is a straight shot down if I remember correctly. Just about any handy person with access to this site can install an insert and liner. Usually the top cap will help keep the liner centered in the middle of the flue.

Btw, that install price is SKY HIGH!

Shoot mellow, just noticed that you said you recommend rigid insulated. That kind hasn't been on my radar, not even sure where to find it? I once posted some Craigslist class A woodstove pipe on here, (it was 8" though when I was doing an 8" flue - not anymore) but nobody seemed to think that was a good idea and kept steering me toward flex. Will try to see what's up with the rigid liners I guess too. You are right, it's a straight shot (see pics, you can see the person up top looking down!)

 

[tickbitty]

Yes. The tile flue stops when it gets close to the firebox (maybe 2 or 3 feet above the damper). Personally I still think you are ok without the liner, but you can never be too safe when dealing with a metal box burning wood in your house. I chose not to based on (in my opinion) expert advice. I have about a 27' run so I wasn't concerned about draft. Also in central VA it doesn't get nearly as cold for as long as other areas, therefore, I wasn't worried about the liner cooling down enough by the cold infiltrating the brick on the outside of my chimney. Speaking of VA where are you? I just installed my stove (FA224) and the thing is great. It heats my whole house (1800 sq. ft.). I fed it this morning before work and 9.5 hours later I still had a good bed of coals to throw on a couple pieces of kindling to get things going again. You'll really enjoy your new stove.

I'm in williamsburg, where are you? Not sure what an FA224 is. I'm doing an insert unless some perfect miracle of craigslist occurs before we actually get it in house. Probably a Lopi Republic 1750i. Even though the local stove shop tried to convince me there is no such thing. (They of the uninsulated yet expensive installs!) %-P
Shop an hour away seems to know their stuff though and have the one I am interested in stock so...

 

[jtp10181]

Yes. The tile flue stops when it gets close to the firebox (maybe 2 or 3 feet above the damper). Personally I still think you are ok without the liner, but you can never be too safe when dealing with a metal box burning wood in your house. I chose not to based on (in my opinion) expert advice. I have about a 27' run so I wasn't concerned about draft. Also in central VA it doesn't get nearly as cold for as long as other areas, therefore, I wasn't worried about the liner cooling down enough by the cold infiltrating the brick on the outside of my chimney. Speaking of VA where are you? I just installed my stove (FA224) and the thing is great. It heats my whole house (1800 sq. ft.). I fed it this morning before work and 9.5 hours later I still had a good bed of coals to throw on a couple pieces of kindling to get things going again. You'll really enjoy your new stove.

Read the thread posted at the top, the insulation is not about draft / cooling of the liner. Its all about safety. Improved draft is just a side effect of the added safety.

You might never have a really nasty chimney fire, but if you did, wouldn't you want your liner *system* to protect your house.

 

[webby3650]

Go with a flex with insulation. You can't go wrong, this would be like throwin a hotdog down a hallway! Get that damper out of the way right off the bat. Make sure the outlet on the stove you choose clears the lintel on the fireplace opening, make sure of this. If you get a liner kit it will come with a top plate that covers the 13"x13"clay, the liner hangs from that, then the rain cap goes on. When I clean an insulated SS flue, I can tell where the insulation stops (usually about a foot from the cap) the creosote really builds up with no insulation.

 

[bsearcey]

I'm in Chesterfiled just below Richmond. FA224 is a Consolidated Dutchwest Federal Airtight 224. I found it on craigslist. It's the pre pre cursor to the VC Dutchwest you can buy today.

JTP: Never said it wasn't about safety, but better draft and a warmer/more consistent liner temp = less creosote build; which = safer. My point was that since tickbitty's chimney is interior it will not be subject to extreme temps diffences like an exterior chimney would. It is basically insulated already. Now if she said that her tile liner was cracked and in bad shape I would have said insulate it. However I do bow down to your extensive knowledge on the subject since I have only burned for about a month now.

Tickbitty: I'm was definitely not trying to steer you into a decision that would be dangerous just to save a few bucks, but given the information you provided, I gave my opinion. I hope you enjoy your new stove.

 

[ikessky]

I could only dream about having 11" of chimney space to work with! I had just shy of 7", so I went with an uninsulated 6" liner. Then again, the chimney is an interior one. I'm still not convinced that I won't pour some insulation in there this summer. It might help to hold some of the heat in the liner and with a smoke dragon furnace, that might help me out a little.

 

[mellow]

Shoot mellow, just noticed that you said you recommend rigid insulated. That kind hasn't been on my radar, not even sure where to find it? I once posted some Craigslist class A woodstove pipe on here, (it was 8" though when I was doing an 8" flue - not anymore) but nobody seemed to think that was a good idea and kept steering me toward flex. Will try to see what's up with the rigid liners I guess too. You are right, it's a straight shot (see pics, you can see the person up top looking down!)

You posted about EXTERIOR class A pipe, I am talking about rigid interior pipe, you can find it at chimney liner depot. For a straight shot I would get the pre-insulated 6" pipe and put it together as I put it down the chimney, you can buy it in different lengths.

http://chimneylinerdepot.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=303