insurance on stoves

[tfdchief]

My insurance company (Allstate) said because I already had a wood burning fireplace, there would be no premium increase for an insert. She also said they consider free standing stoves a "no-no". It's nice to know I was already being charged all these years for something I've never used, the fireplace. Just had my insert put in this year.

I don't understand that " consider free standing stoves a "no-no"" I have been in the fire service for 33 years and been to many more fires caused by fire places and inserts than free standing wood stoves.

Hey, I don't write the policies, just sayin what my insurance agent told me when I called to let them know I was getting an insert installed.

egclassic, I didn't mean to imply any fault on your part, just the insurance companies. Mine says the same thing. I have had an insert for over 30 years and insurance with the same company all that time. This winter, I installed an additional stove, free standing, in the kitchen and when I notified them, they informed me there would be a $45 surcharge. In fact, every year, I call my agent when I get my policy statement and it says on it that I have to verify that I don't have a wood burning stove....I tell him, every year, I have a wood burning insert and the answer has always been the same, no charge, just for free standing stoves. Just saying it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Dakotas Dad]

We didn't tell/ask them before hand, but ran into our agent at dinner not long after we started to burn, she asked for a picture.. I sent her the link in my sig line, $25 premium increase, based on it becoming our primary heat and the heat pump becoming backup..

Cincinnati Insurance.

 

[PLAYS WITH FIRE]

I called the All State Monday to tell about my stove. She said someone would be out to take pix, this was Monday. She calls back today and asked if I said I had an insert of freestanding? I told her insert and she says, "oh, don't worry about it"! " If it was free standing then there would be an increase in premium at 50 bux a year".

So, no worries!

 

[remkel]

The insurance company also sent out someone to inspect the installation. One questions I was asked is if wood is my primary heat- the inspector from the insurance company informed me that “It is not- you only burn 30 days a yearâ€- who was i to disagree????

So...if your house burns down and they can prove (now) that you burn more than 30 days a year, and have been all along, do they have to pay?

I think I'd look very hard into that one!
Under the table deals seldom work out in the long run, especially if smelly things hit the fan...
Lets see...my career with the insurance company, or some shmuck who is obviously a liar...hmmm, I think I'll keep my job!

Um your honor, I never said that...

Rob

Well, apparently a poor attempt at humor results in insults and accusations. The smears are appreciated....

 

[HotCoals]

If you lied about the primary heat source do you think they would look over your heating bills to see how much oil or gas you used to heat your house after a fire?

 

[fire_man]

Tell your insurance company. My town requires a permit and fire department insepection. Had I not done it, I would not have been covered in teh event of a fire. The insurance company also sent out someone to inspect the installation. One questions I was asked is if wood is my primary heat- the inspector from the insurance company informed me that "It is not- you only burn 30 days a year"- who was i to disagree????

I'm not sure some of us with 10+ cord in the back yard could get away with the "only burning 30 days a year" thing. :-S

 

[48rob]

48rob - 12 April 2011 08:06 AM
The insurance company also sent out someone to inspect the installation. One questions I was asked is if wood is my primary heat- the inspector from the insurance company informed me that “It is not- you only burn 30 days a yearâ€- who was i to disagree????

So…if your house burns down and they can prove (now) that you burn more than 30 days a year, and have been all along, do they have to pay?

I think I’d look very hard into that one!
Under the table deals seldom work out in the long run, especially if smelly things hit the fan…
Lets see…my career with the insurance company, or some shmuck who is obviously a liar…hmmm, I think I’ll keep my job!

Um your honor, I never said that…

Rob

Well, apparently a poor attempt at humor results in insults and accusations. The smears are appreciated….

Mr. Remkel,

I assure you that no attempt was made to "smear" you, insult you, accuse you or otherwise make you upset.
I was in fact trying to point out the danger of being in the situation you said you were in.

My apologies for not understanding that your statement was simply humor.

The fact remains that one must always be vigilant when dealing with an insurance company.
Though they may not be dishonest, many people in the industry are paid to find (legal) ways to not have to pay claims.

Rob

 

[Dakotas Dad]

Honestly, a couple people have at least mentioned that they may have not been totally "clear" with the insurance company, some surely jest. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which, and since the main drive of this forum is to help people "do it right" and "do it safe", you end up with a lot of members who TRULY care, that people they don't even know, living in places they will never see, get the best advice possible, to keep them safe/legal/warm.

The reality of insurance is that is a business. First and foremost. While it provides a service to it's customers, it also is a business with investors and boards and a bottom line.

In my case a total loss would be somewhere around a half million dollars on their books. You don't think with that kind of money on the line, they won't perform due diligence on their end?

 

[firefighterjake]

Not a big fan of All State . . . both as a former customer when I found out how much more I was paying compared to my current insurance carrier (Travelers) and what I saw my parents go through with their claim. In my case with the woodstove, Travelers had no increase in premium . . . I filled out a survey, had the system professionally installed and had the Fire Department do an inspection. Quite easy.

Primary heat vs. secondary heat. I guess it depends on how one would define what makes one system the primary heating system. I could say I heat primarily with wood since most of my heating needs are met with my woodstove . . . or one could say my oil boiler is my primary heat since this is the system I rely on to provide heat 24-7 whether I'm at home or away and it's always on and ready to go (it's just that my practice of "occasional" wood burning in these new EPA stoves just happens to provide a lot of heat over a long period of time so the boiler doesn't run very often.) Semantics I know . . . maybe I should be a politician . . . nah . . . I kindof like being liked.

 

[tfdchief]

Not a big fan of All State . . . both as a former customer when I found out how much more I was paying compared to my current insurance carrier (Travelers) and what I saw my parents go through with their claim. In my case with the woodstove, Travelers had no increase in premium . . . I filled out a survey, had the system professionally installed and had the Fire Department do an inspection. Quite easy.

Primary heat vs. secondary heat. I guess it depends on how one would define what makes one system the primary heating system. I could say I heat primarily with wood since most of my heating needs are met with my woodstove . . . or one could say my oil boiler is my primary heat since this is the system I rely on to provide heat 24-7 whether I'm at home or away and it's always on and ready to go (it's just that my practice of "occasional" wood burning in these new EPA stoves just happens to provide a lot of heat over a long period of time so the boiler doesn't run very often.) Semantics I know . . . maybe I should be a politician . . . nah . . . I kindof like being liked.

Good point Jake, I would guess you are right, it comes down to definition. Or I am guessing it works that way in the insurance business....it sure does in the code world. It does not matter how you, me, or anyone else defines a term, only the way the code defines it. If my insurance agent ask me whether one was primary or secondary, I would ask for his definition of that, and ask to see it in the policy.

 

[tfdchief]

As promised here is my report on the insurance inspection. My insurance inspector (for Pekin Insurance) just finished his inspection of my new Hampton H200 install. He took a picture of the stove and hearth (asked the make and model), and a picture of my Buck insert (asked the make and model...it's been there for 30 years), ask the square footage of my house, crawlspace or basement, and took a picture of the front and back of the house. Said "looks good" and left. I was a little surprised there were no technical questions or evaluation. Didn't want to look at the chimney in the attic, took no measurements. As everyone has said, it depends on the the company....they are all different.

 

[egclassic]

My insurance company (Allstate) said because I already had a wood burning fireplace, there would be no premium increase for an insert. She also said they consider free standing stoves a "no-no". It's nice to know I was already being charged all these years for something I've never used, the fireplace. Just had my insert put in this year.

I don't understand that " consider free standing stoves a "no-no"" I have been in the fire service for 33 years and been to many more fires caused by fire places and inserts than free standing wood stoves.

Hey, I don't write the policies, just sayin what my insurance agent told me when I called to let them know I was getting an insert installed.

egclassic, I didn't mean to imply any fault on your part, just the insurance companies. Mine says the same thing. I have had an insert for over 30 years and insurance with the same company all that time. This winter, I installed an additional stove, free standing, in the kitchen and when I notified them, they informed me there would be a $45 surcharge. In fact, every year, I call my agent when I get my policy statement and it says on it that I have to verify that I don't have a wood burning stove....I tell him, every year, I have a wood burning insert and the answer has always been the same, no charge, just for free standing stoves. Just saying it doesn't make any sense.

Sorry, I did not mean sound defensive. I agree with you, why does it matter whether it is an insert or a free standing. They can both pose a hazard if one is careless in operating it.
My agent never metioned anything about an inspection, now I'm wondering if I should call and ask about it. Stove was professionally installed and all clearances seem to be correct.

 

[tfdchief]

As promised, I searched NFPA and NFIRS for statistics on house fires caused by wood stove and fire place inserts. I found a NFPA report in 2010, page 43 (http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/OS.spaceheaters.pdf) documenting the number of house fires for the period of 2003 - 2007, in which roughly twice as many structure fires were caused by (solid fuel burning) stoves than inserts. Interestingly, on page 32 of the report, all heating stoves were responsible for roughly four times as many fires as inserts, but that statistic included all fuel sources, and electric was the winner there by a wide margin.
Edit: Also noteworthy, I found other studies showing that the vast majority of fires started in the chimney connector or flue....and you guessed it, creosote build up being the culprit most of the time. However, I also found that there has been a huge decline since the early '80s in solid fuel burning appliance caused structure fires, so maybe we are getting smarter

 

[gyrfalcon]

This all reads real strange to me. When I bought this house and paid a visit to the ins. agent, they hauled out a form and asked me a bunch of questions, one of which was whether I had a woodstove. I said yes, and that was the extent of it. They didn't want to know what kind, whether I used it for primary heating, and sent no inspectors or anything else. No idea whether that added anything to the premium because the house had a (crappy little toy) woodstove when I bought it and I was about to buy a good one, so it was a moot point.

But pretty much everybody here has a woodstove, although some don't use them much anymore, so if you're going to sell home insurance around here, you can't make a big issue out of it, I guess.

 

[DanCorcoran]

As promised, I searched NFPA and NFIRS for statistics on house fires caused by wood stove and fire place inserts. I found a NFPA report in 2010, page 43 (http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/OS.spaceheaters.pdf) documenting the number of house fires for the period of 2003 - 2007, in which roughly twice as many structure fires were caused by (solid fuel burning) stoves than inserts. Interestingly, on page 32 of the report, all heating stoves were responsible for roughly four times as many fires as inserts, but that statistic included all fuel sources, and electric was the winner there by a wide margin.
Edit: Also noteworthy, I found other studies showing that the vast majority of fires started in the chimney connector or flue....and you guessed it, creosote build up being the culprit most of the time. However, I also found that there has been a huge decline since the early '80s in solid fuel burning appliance caused structure fires, so maybe we are getting smarter

I read Table 2C on page 33 to say that, in terms of the number of fires per million appliances, woodstoves and other solid-fuel appliances were second only to kerosene and liquid heaters. Electric and gas started fewer fires, proportionally.

 

[tfdchief]

As promised, I searched NFPA and NFIRS for statistics on house fires caused by wood stove and fire place inserts. I found a NFPA report in 2010, page 43 (http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/OS.spaceheaters.pdf) documenting the number of house fires for the period of 2003 - 2007, in which roughly twice as many structure fires were caused by (solid fuel burning) stoves than inserts. Interestingly, on page 32 of the report, all heating stoves were responsible for roughly four times as many fires as inserts, but that statistic included all fuel sources, and electric was the winner there by a wide margin.
Edit: Also noteworthy, I found other studies showing that the vast majority of fires started in the chimney connector or flue....and you guessed it, creosote build up being the culprit most of the time. However, I also found that there has been a huge decline since the early '80s in solid fuel burning appliance caused structure fires, so maybe we are getting smarter

I read Table 2C on page 33 to say that, in terms of the number of fires per million appliances, woodstoves and other solid-fuel appliances were second only to kerosene and liquid heaters. Electric and gas started fewer fires, proportionally.

DanC, Yes I saw that. It is a little unclear to me what those numbers in Table 2C are. Again though, if you look at Table 2A on the previous page, I think it clearly says "number of fires" and electric space heaters lead the charge. A little confussing for sure.

 

[gonefishin]

[quote author="tfdchief"
Edit: Also noteworthy, I found other studies showing that the vast majority of fires started in the chimney connector or flue....and you guessed it, creosote build up being the culprit most of the time. However, I also found that there has been a huge decline since the early '80s in solid fuel burning appliance caused structure fires, so maybe we are getting smarter [/q
uote]

I asked my dad about if his insurance co. Knows he has a woodburner he said no iv never told them (had stove for 10 years) because when he installed it he said there was no rules on telling insurance co.....plus his free standing stove is attached to fireplace chimney, is that still considered freestanding? Funny enough, his chimney has caught on fire couple times, he's said same thing both times started at elbow in pipe came out of stove then bends up into chimney,he's going to talk to insurance to make sure he's covered! Glad all of you are making good posts, this will help more than one person! Thank-you

 

[48rob]

he’s going to talk to insurance to make sure he’s covered! Glad all of you are making good posts, this will help more than one person! Thank-you

It is good to hear people are thinking about the things being posted.
Thanks for the feedback!
Maybe you can get your dad to join, and he can "discover" why his chimney keeps catching on fire...might save his life...

Rob