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International Residential code concerning damper block off

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by elkimmeg, Sep 28, 2006.

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  1. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Since NFPA 211 is not an adopted code, but a refference code, the International Residential codes are the governing code

    mind you 2006 direct cut and paste

    RESIDENTIAL
    CODE®
    FOR ONE- AND TWO-FAMILY DWELLINGS

    Part V — Mechanical
    CHAPTER 18 Chimney& Vents
    MECHANICAL




    M1803.4 Connection to fireplace flue. Connection of appliances
    to chimney flues serving fireplaces shall comply with
    Sections M1803.4.1 through M1803.4.4.

    M1803.4.1 Closure and accessibility. A ridgid noncombustible
    seal shall be provided below the point of connection to prevent
    entry of room air into the flue. Means shall be provided
    for access to the flue for inspection and cleaning

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  2. stuart

    stuart New Member

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    mine is not sealed i still have metal door there so am i too read into that i should seal it off???
  3. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Hmmm... They added one word to the 2003 version.

    "rigid"
  4. ecfinn

    ecfinn New Member

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    Hey everyone,

    I specifically asked my installers about a block-off plate for the bottom of my full length liner. They said its not needed because we use one at the top. He said it would be an extra charge to put one in and he's never done that in 15 years in the business. This is the first thing they told me that scared me... It seems to directly contradict what Elk just posted in the latest code. Is it just a matter of educating them on this? The other odd part is I had asked them about the hearth requirements and he pulled out a copy of the 2006 code where it states it has to be 4" thick at a minimum in section 11.2.1.15. I'm assuming this is the same code, just a different section?

    Elk, I guess my question in reading this section of the code is it referring to a full liner or simply a direct connection to the chimney flue? I guess I can read M1803.4 to only apply if you are "connecting to the flue" not if you are simply putting a liner inside of the existing flue. I can certainly see the need for a blockoff plate when you are doing a direct connection, but again this is just one home-owner's opinion and has no basis in actual practice or experience whatsoever.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm putting a deposit down for the stove and installation sometime in the next few days.

    Thanks,

    Eric (who learns more in an hour on hearth.com than in an hour at the stove shop.)
  5. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    BB I had a little to do with the ridgid I petitioned the governing code body actually they cane to Ma as we are adopting their body of code and met with their represenatives. I explained that the way it was written. In many installations ccommon insulation batt insulation was used. That condensation falling debris weighted the bats down and they were not a permanent solution and no longer prevented the dulusion ofm room air in the chase. The first wording was permanent but it is hard to be permanent and removable

    I have another petition also being reviewed the 2006 Intrenational codes finally reconised the NFPA211 today the cross-sectional area code (International) is 3x the flue collar NFPA 2003 is 2x ccross-sectional area exposed chimneys and 3x interior chimney locations. If the intrenational code refferences NFPA 211 then they should be consistant. I have another petition concerning HVAC return locations. As it stands supply = returns No language exist pertaining to locations. Effecient heating should return cool air not already heated air at ceiling level return locations. Also that all bedrooms have returns The emphasis here is that returns in the hall ways ceilings, does not return cooler air from under the door space.

    There is another place in the Model energy codes, where the chimney has to have and operable damper to close off that opening.
    If the damper is removed or fixed permanently open, approved means must be provided to be able to restore the integerity of the envelope. The international codes also publish supplemental commentary . There it is discussed, that in the case of gas log sets glass doors act to replace the seal of the opening. All this is up to the code officials to interpet. If something is removed the it should be replaced with a similar like device.. A damper plate has to be removable and acccesiable roof top caps are not redialy accessiable The orginal damper is made of cast iron or steel. Therefore the damper plate must be of simmilar non combustiable material

    there is no way common batt insulation can be called similar to cast iron

    Call it the Elkimmeg code metal damper plates are required . Is not a dead air space a form of insulation?
  6. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    2006 International Mechanical codes is the chapter on Refridgeration so it not in there

    The 1/2 Familly residential Mechanical codes do not have a chapter 11

    2003 Mechanical codes is also Refergeration chapter 11


    He must be using NFPA 211 which I have to put the disk in my laptop to confirm
  7. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Yep dead air space is insulation. And it looks like that plate steel surround of mine is gonna do the job fine sealed with continious two inch thick rock wool compressed to one inch. Leak tests really good. That and the top four feet of the chimney packed with rock wool around the double wall liner and a sealed top plate is as good as this one is gonna get

    Just for good heat retention measure I packed the back, sides and top of the insert too. I may melt downs the insert. It won't know how to act.

    I agree on the returns but the builders are gonna hate you.
  8. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    BB look at the energy wasted returning only previously heated air at ceiling level..

    T plead one's case one also has to weigh in pros and cons increases in cost has to justify the code change
    yes there is a money factor to consider. It can be done inexpensive return boot in a joist cavity
    and two register frames. Residential HVAC allows joist or wall cavities to be used in the return side.

    the cost per bedroom no more that $15 and that includes the damper grill covers.


    BB I can report many new homes are done this way in my town. It starts out one contractor doing it. When the home is shown to customers the energy effeciencies of the locations are pointed out. then off to the next builder's home inevitiably it gets back to that builders, for only a few $$ more his competition is building more energy effecient homes. Now is is becoming common practice.

    Part of my job is also educational bring better installations forward. We all are winning if we use less energy. ITs so simple and cost effective, there is no reason not to address and implement good installations practices.

    Existing home can be retrofited easily and payback and instant improvements can be realized right away.
  9. ecfinn

    ecfinn New Member

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    Ok, I'd be curious to see if the NFPA code has any mention of the block off plates, since that seems to be what the shop is using for reference.

    Also, would you care to comment on my previous suggestion that maybe your quoted code from M1803.4 only refers to direct connections to a chimney flue and not full liners?

    Thanks again for your education on this topic. My families' safety is very important to me and since my local township doesn't want to be bothered by permitting and inspecting my install I need to understand it all myself for my own piece of mind.

    Eric
  10. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Eric there is languare about preventing intrusion of room air My lunch break now I will not have time to look it up till after 9:00 tonight after golf. Point being there is no penalty of exceeding minium code just a larger safety factor
  11. ecfinn

    ecfinn New Member

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    I spoke to my dealer again about this issue and he mentioned (unprompted by me mind you) that the bottom block off plate was only required for direct connections to the chimney when the pipe only extends into the first flue tile and that "every stove shop in the area installs full liners the same way, without the bottom plate". It'll only cost me an additional $89 for the plate. Should I still ask for the plate? As far as my local township and homeowners insurance I only need to have the insert professionally installed and I'll be covered.

    Thanks again for the help, and I'll still be curious to see what the NFPA 211 code says if you get the chance.

    Eric
  12. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    What kind of stove Eric?
  13. Shane

    Shane Minister of Fire

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    For 90 bucks it's probably worth it.
  14. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Elk, that particular snippet is open to interpretation. It seems as if they are talking about a situation where someone might connect a crock through a wall into a fireplace flue - and that the person should then seal the flue below that point and have a means for cleaning.....

    Room air is not going to go up a flue in volume if the top is sealed well....you have to have air out to get air back in!

    That all said, I think a bottom plate is 100% needed for a proper, tight and problem-free installation.
  15. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    The dealer's price is $48 for venttinox conector sealing kit.. 12" by 24" 24 gage sheetmetal tube of recactory cement and 4 tapcorns less than $15

    I feel guilty here spending your money, If you lived near me I would offer to cut a plate out of metal and install it for you .
    $90 I I do not know if it is worth the additional safety. Part of me, is I am used to doing things like this myself, and I forget what the going rates are. Forget quoting code, I do that enough, but I am a home owner with a buget too.
  16. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    We used to make up plates for folks in our shop for 35 - figuring for inflation, and then for installation, the 90 is not too bad. Of course, it should have been figured in with the job in the first place - exception might be if insert has decent sealing front panels and then liner is sealed well at top.

    Elk, speaking of DIY - I just hung all the sheetrock ceiling and walls - and then taped it myself.....My least favorite job! But I had to get it done - now starting to actually move tools and machines into there. The walls won't get painted this year!

    The Pellet stove is not in because the supplier backordered a lot of my pellet pipe! If they don't ship it soon, I'll cancel and get somewhere else.
  17. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Craig with all the influence you bring to the table, How can a manufaturer tell you your stove is back ordered?
    200,000 readers are going to watch what the expert buys himself. I would think the last person that would experience this would be you. Do you want me to call VC and get a wood stove in there Forum member and myself will help with the install and evem bring wood. I will twist EH arm, EX marine and all, to get it done. Harry, Dane, got your ears on, this can not be happening. What does Webwidow say?
  18. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh, I have the stove - one of those countryside corn jobs!

    I also have about 1/2 the Pellet Pro pipe - after I ordered it I heard in the industry forum that Dura was having a hard time keeping up with demand. So the pipe does not do me any good without the tees and elbos!

    If it is not on the way today, I will order regular pellet pipe and return this.

    Influence? I really have none (maybe a little right here)...... Remember, it is ME that wants something from manufacturers, retailers, etc. (I want them to advertise and/or use this site) - so THEY are the customer!
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