Is fireplace efficiency really that bad?

[weatherguy]

That answers the question of “are they capable”
What im wondering is would you use the same amount of wood and get the same heat output if you were using the same stove in a free standing model?
In other words is there an efficiency penalty using an insert vs a free standing and if so what is it?

I probably would use the same amount of wood but have to work a little harder to get the heat dispersed. Im still perfecting my system but as long as the fans on the rooms we spend most of our time are toasty. Theres a couple cool spots in the house but we dont use those rooms much so we dont care. I used 3 cords last year but it was my first year and I didnt start til around now, Ill have a btter idea after this heating system after I can compare the two years. I know Im a much better burner this year than last.

 

[Renovation]

[/quote]

Im doing the bulk of my heating with my BK Princess insert and I have about 2800+ sf.[/quote]

+1 Princess gets great reviews for heating and efficiency.

 

[branchburner]

In other words is there an efficiency penalty using an insert vs a free standing and if so what is it?

Penalty enforced during power outage = no blower

 

[Jaugust124]

In the 10 years we lived in our old home (1000 sq. ft. ranch) we enjoyed the fireplace for ambiance about once a week, never using it to really get any heat unless sitting directly in front of it. I was able to adjust the damper and keep it closed enough to keep the smoke out, but never really noticed much of a difference in heat output.

Two years ago we moved into a 2300 sq. ft. colonial with an open fireplace and damper that was either open all the way or closed all the way - no inbetween. I have to say that using the fireplace was nice for the ambiance, but as soon as the fire started to die down the furnace would kick on every 15 minutes to supply heat. It got to the point that I didn't even want to use the fireplace. That's when I started researching pellet stoves and inserts. The insert was installed in May and we are really still figuring things out, but I can say the difference in heat output between a fireplace and insert is night and day. We have yet to do a true overnight burn, but I am looking forward to some supplemental heat and lowering my oil bill. I think the old open fireplace actually cost us money every time we run it, now every time I light a fire I think about the money (at least for oil) I'm saving.

 

[Jaugust124]

In other words is there an efficiency penalty using an insert vs a free standing and if so what is it?

Penalty enforced during power outage = no blower

Yeah, from my limited experience I know I couldn't heat my house without the blower. Last year we lost power for about 42 hours and tried to keep warm with the open fireplace, really tough to do. (This was before the insert was installed) I have been contemplating a generator for just such occasions.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

In other words is there an efficiency penalty using an insert vs a free standing and if so what is it?

Penalty enforced during power outage = no blower

Yeah, from my limited experience I know I couldn't heat my house without the blower. Last year we lost power for about 42 hours and tried to keep warm with the open fireplace, really tough to do. (This was before the insert was installed) I have been contemplating a generator for just such occasions.

I have a blower on my free standing as well but it can do just fine without it. Its great for keeping the stove from getting too hot. I like the look of the insert a lot better than the free standing,so im wondering if i install it sort of in a stone fireplace facade (non combustable of course) with the back exposed behind the wall ill probably trap less heat and it may even work better if the fans were down.

 

[SteveKG]

When I built this house in the mid-80s, I built a fireplace in the living room from local fieldstone. I knew the fireplace would not work well for heating the home. For heating, we have two woodstoves, one at each end of the place. I simply wanted the open-flame fire and the arched stone opening and etc. Just because.

Never have regretted it. We burn it for fun and, it is. I also designed it according to the Rumsford principles and it truly works far, far better than any other fireplace I've been around to experience. In fact, it is quite easy to build too big a fire for comfort, heat-wise.

That being said, the other posters are correct that once the fire dies down, the chimney draft continues to pull warm air from the house and cold air into the house. It helps some that I constructed an outside air source into the base of the firebox, but the draft still cools the house some. How much, I have no idea.

But we really like the thing, use it often. Ours does not really burn that much wood, though certainly more than a woodstove for the same heat. I have been around numerous non-Rumsford fireplaces that ate wood like a black hole, though. For very little heat, actually.

Were I to build another house and move, I'd build another fireplace. But in no way would I build one for a reasonable heat source.

 

[branchburner]

... I also designed it according to the Rumsford principles and it truly works far, far better than any other fireplace I've been around to experience... I have been around numerous non-Rumsford fireplaces that ate wood like a black hole, though. For very little heat, actually.

You are so right about the design - it is hard to believe the difference until you experience it. Had turkey with the in-laws today in front of their huge but shallow Rumsford-influence fireplace. A few small splits were throwing an amazing amount of heat into the room.

Not quite as big as this one, though:
http://www.rumford.com/images/IMI3.jpg

 

[DBoon]

I agree with the comment that a fireplace can range from +15% to -10% efficiency.

The +15% is probably what you would get from a Rumford design, or a pre-fab with similar dimensions as a Rumford). I had a pre-fab like that and (as one of the previous posters indicated), they can throw off good heat. I could heat my condo with that until it got below freezing. But my wood stove gives me far more than that ever did.

A normal, deep masonry fireplace is probably on the -10% side of the range. In my current house, I have one of these and we had one or two fires in it before realizing how cold it was and replacing it with a wood stove the next year.

 

[Todd]

There are some very efficient clean burning fireplaces out there like the Fireplace Xtrodinaire and Quad 7100. You can even install some ducting to other parts of the house so they act more like a wood furnace with a nice view. I would consider one of these before building a fireplace to just stick an insert into it.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Fireplaces are great....in the summer months for a short fire when there is a bit of a chill.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

There are some very efficient clean burning fireplaces out there like the Fireplace Xtrodinaire and Quad 7100. You can even install some ducting to other parts of the house so they act more like a wood furnace with a nice view. I would consider one of these before building a fireplace to just stick an insert into it.

Im not actually going to build a fireplace to put the insert in but a fireplace facade (non-combustible of course)as my furnace room is behind the wall in the area so the back of the insert would be exposed there. From the front it will look like a fireplace. Its a relatively small room off my main Rec-room and a free standing stove would stick out too much anyway.

 

[Wooddust]

The pure pleasure of a fireplace, especially on special days like Thanksgiving or Christmas or those days when the perfect snow falls outweighs any consideration of efficiency. My head would explode if every decision I make had to be put to some series of tests of efficiency, need, value....life is a one way trip. So Ill continue to go for seconds on pecan pie, drinking expensive bourbon, handcrafted beer, make my own pasta from scratch and till the garden with a tractor. And whenever I feel like it, if the urge hits, the fireplace will roar.

 

[SteveKG]

Right on.

 

[branchburner]

The pure pleasure of a fireplace, especially on special days like Thanksgiving or Christmas or those days when the perfect snow falls outweighs any consideration of efficiency. My head would explode if every decision I make had to be put to some series of tests of efficiency, need, value....life is a one way trip. So Ill continue to go for seconds on pecan pie, drinking expensive bourbon, handcrafted beer, make my own pasta from scratch and till the garden with a tractor. And whenever I feel like it, if the urge hits, the fireplace will roar.

The analogy is good, but it works both ways. How efficient are those foods at nourishing you? If you are trying to sustain your health and nutrition by consuming ONLY pecan pie, drinking expensive bourbon, handcrafted beer and homemade pasta... if you are really trying to do that... well... well then save some for me, I'll be right over!

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The pure pleasure of a fireplace, especially on special days like Thanksgiving or Christmas or those days when the perfect snow falls outweighs any consideration of efficiency. My head would explode if every decision I make had to be put to some series of tests of efficiency, need, value....life is a one way trip. So Ill continue to go for seconds on pecan pie, drinking expensive bourbon, handcrafted beer, make my own pasta from scratch and till the garden with a tractor. And whenever I feel like it, if the urge hits, the fireplace will roar.

Exactly why i am looking at a Harman 300i insert a very attractive stove that can, like its cousin the freestanding TL- 300 can be used (when the urge strikes)with the door (or doors) wide open with a screen in place. All other times you have a super efficient wood stove with a 75000 BTU rating,12-17 hour burn times, and dual fans to distribute the heat and easily
heat 1500-3000Sf. Love the look and ambiance of the fireplace,and also the "easy on the wood pile" secondary burn high output modern wood stove. AS close as i can get to both in one stove.

 

[Wooddust]

The pure pleasure of a fireplace, especially on special days like Thanksgiving or Christmas or those days when the perfect snow falls outweighs any consideration of efficiency. My head would explode if every decision I make had to be put to some series of tests of efficiency, need, value....life is a one way trip. So Ill continue to go for seconds on pecan pie, drinking expensive bourbon, handcrafted beer, make my own pasta from scratch and till the garden with a tractor. And whenever I feel like it, if the urge hits, the fireplace will roar.

The analogy is good, but it works both ways. How efficient are those foods at nourishing you? If you are trying to sustain your health and nutrition by consuming ONLY pecan pie, drinking expensive bourbon, handcrafted beer and homemade pasta... if you are really trying to do that... well... well then save some for me, I'll be right over!

Well no, the list of things enjoyed is broader and deeper and probably no less glutton like. Fine shotguns, rifles, and handguns, a great shot on a pheasant on the rise, a good dog, maybe someday a 70 Mustang Mach 1 in the garage instead of the cats litter box...sourdough waffles at the farm after a hour or two catching big bluegills and bass on the surface, sourdough biscuits cooked by the fire outside and some Chicken fried steak with friends at the fire.....and for that efficiency nutrition need, some good cowboy beans.

None are able to pass an efficiency or need test. But if you haven't taken time for these things, remember lightning can strike as it did to my friend Stan in Texas. Im sure he understands as he looks down and sees me worry less and enjoy more. So throw some logs on the fire.

 

[branchburner]

Well no, the list of things enjoyed is broader and deeper and probably no less glutton like. Fine shotguns, rifles, and handguns, a great shot on a pheasant on the rise, a good dog, maybe someday a 70 Mustang Mach 1 in the garage instead of the cats litter box...sourdough waffles at the farm after a hour or two catching big bluegills and bass on the surface, sourdough biscuits cooked by the fire outside and some Chicken fried steak with friends at the fire.....and for that efficiency nutrition need, some good cowboy beans.

What kinda mileage you get on that Mach I? Just kiddin' - your list is sounding pretty sweet!

 

[HotCoals]

I bet you want the 70 with a 302 boss...I want the 69/428cj myself.
Buddy of mine had the 69/351 new..man was I envious.

 

[Wooddust]

I bet you want the 70 with a 302 boss...I want the 69/428cj myself.
Buddy of mine had the 69/351 new..man was I envious.

Id kill for a 69/351c.....man what a ride. Drop on som headers, a small cam, Holly 650, edelbrock lowrise.

OK....so, Im old and want a fast car.

The days of plugs, points, feeler gauges.

 

[HotCoals]

It may have been more work tuning them back then..but it made you feel like you accomplished something getting the dwell meter and timing light out.
But today's stuff sure is a lot easier ..chokes used to be a pain..pull offs not working and crap like that..lol.

 

[Wooddust]

Good old days suck when you go bringing reality into it. Im gonna remember gas wars and 16cent gas on Jefferson Street in Springfield Illinois and not allow you to ruin this moment.

 

[HotCoals]

Sorry bought that! lol
But man when Detroit rolled out those late 60's and early 70's cars I was drooling all over myself..tang's..hemi cuda's..302 z-28s.

 

[Wooddust]

I remember..I had a 65 Ford 4 door ex cop car. A buddys dad bought him a brand new RoadRunner, lemon yellow, white top white interior. 383.

Nowdays we know the metal was designed to rust into oblivion but new that car was so sweet.

 

[firefighterjake]

... I also designed it according to the Rumsford principles and it truly works far, far better than any other fireplace I've been around to experience... I have been around numerous non-Rumsford fireplaces that ate wood like a black hole, though. For very little heat, actually.

You are so right about the design - it is hard to believe the difference until you experience it. Had turkey with the in-laws today in front of their huge but shallow Rumsford-influence fireplace. A few small splits were throwing an amazing amount of heat into the room.

Not quite as big as this one, though:
http://www.rumford.com/images/IMI3.jpg

This is either one humungus fireplace . . . or one very small mason.