Jotul 350 and 450 burners I have questions for you

[jadm]

I just had a 550 installed and have questions about measuring temps inside the firebox.

On my old unit - Napoleon 1101- I had a Rutland therm. mounted right above the door and used that measurement when loading and running during burns.

I put it above the door on my Jotul and after a couple of curing fires it became readily apparent that the fire in the box was a lot hotter than what was being registered on the therm. I have since learned that on this model the outside is a cover for the fire box so I am not getting an accurate reading.

I have placed the therm. on the door and the temp. shoots up anywhere from 100*-150* depending on what stage the fire is currently burning at.

I am curious if any of you have had similar experiences with your inserts and what variations you are coming up with on your measurements.

I don't need really accurate temps. because I am not like some people on this site that burn at way high temps. I'm a chicken burner and feel most comfortable around 500*-550* burns.

So far it seems like if my therm. says 350* it is probably 550* inside. I know my eyebrows get scared if I open the door at those temps. :ahhh:

 

[begreen]

It's probably more like 1000 degrees inside the firebox. As noted in the other thread, your thermometer is on a panel that is attached to the stove body. So the temps registered there are relative. If it is registering 350 then it is more like 550 on the actual stove face, which in this case there isn't a location to attach a thermometer.

Just burn and enjoy. If the stove starts glowing red, shut down the air.

 

[jadm]

I know this is a simple concept and I am missing it but I am narrowing down my field of questions and trying to get more specific here.

So when I read my Rutland therm. and it designates burn temps and divides them into 3 categories (creosote creating temps, optimum burn temps and over firing temps.) it is referring to the stove face temps which aren't the same as the actual internal temps.?

Which means there are three different temp. reading places on a stove. The flue, the stove face and the internal temp.?

Which temp. reading is the one I need to pay attention to so as to avoid that RED glow that I have read so much about?

I have the 'relative' part of this subject down and can assume that when I read 350* that it is 550* on the stove face which then means I am in optimum burn zone according to the Rutland?

Doesn't appear as though I have narrowed down anything...

I'm just getting clearer on exactly what I don't know even though it seems to be so simple..... I mean geeze -it's just a matter of degrees

 

[begreen]

Edit:
Normally I would say - ignore the zones, the thermometer zones are for single-wall flue readings. But in your case, they might line up perfectly. What are the normal temperature readings you are getting with the current thermometer location, now that you are burning full-sized, hot fires?
/Edit

Regardless of where the thermometer is placed it is going to give a temperature reading relative to the firebox temperature. You will need to do the mental calculations to extrapolate the firebox temp from the surface reading. From the readings provided it sounds like where you have the thermometer placed is just fine. It appears to be providing approximately 30-40% of the actual firebox temp. If you want a more accurate reading you will need to buy either a remote digital probe thermometer for the flue (somewhat expensive) or an IR thermometer. Or you can just use what you have got and do the math.

Search this on "thermometer" and you will find a day's worth of reading on posts here.

Also note that many people burn without a thermometer. Instead they watch the fire. If there is good secondary burn while the wood is outgassing, then the stove is getting hot enough.
(search on secondary burn)

 

[jadm]

BeGreen - THanks for all of your patience here. This learning curve is throwing me. Used to signs from my old stove and am afraid of building up the creosote.

A new question today. Did a start up/heat up fire with 4 good sized logs and fire burned well with draft air open fully. I added 3 new pieces of wood and wanted to cut down on the air because when it's open I'm burning a lot of wood quickly. I took it down 25% and all was well after I waited for it to adjust. I cut back to 50% and it was okay again and I left it there to see if temps. would rise like they did in my Napoleon. They did not so I cut back to 25% and flames started to struggle and the fire bricks darkened up (they had been clear up to this point). I waited to see if it would adjust. Nada so I opened it back to 50% and flames relaxed and bricks have begun to clean up. Glass has remained clear throughout. No deviation in temp.

Am I trying to cut air too quickly even though I waited between each decrease?

Secondaries are dancing around on the back air tubes but I don't see any activity on the front ones.

I'm just using the door temp. and know it isn't accurate. Have looked into an IR but at this point I just want to use my eyes and note what is happening inside the box with the bricks, glass and flames. Throwing another measurement in here at this point will send me over the edge. Info. overload for my brain.

I have gone through the old topics on secondary burn cycles and I think I kind of get it. I just have to apply what I have read or else it doesn't register. Takes awhile for my brain to really soak in info. that is new. The older I get the longer it takes.....grrrrr

 

[begreen]

A new question today. Did a start up/heat up fire with 4 good sized logs and fire burned well with draft air open fully. I added 3 new pieces of wood and wanted to cut down on the air because when it's open I'm burning a lot of wood quickly. I took it down 25% and all was well after I waited for it to adjust. I cut back to 50% and it was okay again and I left it there to see if temps. would rise like they did in my Napoleon. They did not so I cut back to 25% and flames started to struggle and the fire bricks darkened up (they had been clear up to this point). I waited to see if it would adjust. Nada so I opened it back to 50% and flames relaxed and bricks have begun to clean up. Glass has remained clear throughout. No deviation in temp.

Am I trying to cut air too quickly even though I waited between each decrease?

Every load of wood is different. It sounds like the air was cut back a little too soon. You did the right thing and the fire responded accordingly. This is totally normal. There are times when I cut back the air too soon too, even after decades of burning.

Secondaries are dancing around on the back air tubes but I don't see any activity on the front ones.

Sounds normal. You haven't really filled the firebox up and had a full fire yet.

I'm just using the door temp. and know it isn't accurate. Have looked into an IR but at this point I just want to use my eyes and note what is happening inside the box with the bricks, glass and flames. Throwing another measurement in here at this point will send me over the edge. Info. overload for my brain.

Good plan, burn lots of fires and get to know the stove. Then share your experiences with us. We're all learning in one way or another.

 

[jadm]

BeGreen- You don't know how welcome your encouragement is. My own family fails to appreciate my trial and error methods and my asking for information from people with experience. I just get glares....I don't understand their responses.....They haven't missed any meals; have gotten to all of their assorted activities on time; the refrigerator is well stocked and the animals are all happy. Mom is just a bit busier than usual....It's that attention thing

I'm just letting it sit at 50% for now BUT I am bummed about how much wood I am going through at this rate.( I'm wondering if it's okay to let the bricks get black so I can cut down the air a bit more.) It is 11:30a.m. and I started first fire at 8:30a.m. and have gone through as much wood as I would have used in the Napoleon in a day. That seems like way too much to me. Please tell me that once I get the hang of this I won't be going through that much....

My expectation with this unit was that I would get higher burn temps. due to fire box size and that as a result of being able to add more wood, my burn times would be a lot longer than I got with the Napoleon.

So far that is not what I am experiencing.

How do you guys get such high temps. and long burn times???? That remains a mystery to me!

 

[begreen]

Here is another post for a C450. Note where Mike has his thermometer. Is this a possibility on the C550?

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/8690/

 

[jadm]

I just saw that same message on Soxfans threads and looked at it. No it won't.

I bit the bullet and ordered an IR this morning. Figure it will add to my fireplace toy list. :coolsmile:

Found the one you mentioned on the other thread (ATD-701) on the following web site; tooldesk.com. Phone # 1-877-603-6963. It sold for 39.00 which I thought was reasonable when compared to what I just spent on this insert. :ahhh:

I am looking forward to having fun with it. My son will be thrilled because it will have a trigger on it.....

Just goes to show me we never get to old for toys.

 

[begreen]

That will help give you the answers you are looking for. Be careful with it though, it's not a toy. It can blind quickly if pointed at one's eyes (or another's).