Jotul 450 Kennebec - Clearance to Furniture

[hatrick]

I am looking to put a Jotul 450 Kennebec insert into my fireplace and I have two recliners that are on either side of my hearth at 45 degree angles. They are 24" from where the edge/side of the inserts firebox would be to the side of the recliner and I am wondering if that is enough clearance or if I am going to have any issues with them being that close. There is nothing directly in front of where the stove would be.

If anyone that has a Jotul 450 Kennebec could let me know how hot the area around the stove gets, that would be greatly appreciated. I'll post some pictures of my fireplace area tonight so there is a visual reference to my question.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[Wet1]

The distance to combustibles should be listed in the manual. I think it's generally 18" for most stove manufactures, so 24" should be okay.

With that said, I wouldn't place furniture that close, not only for safety reasons, but also because the stove will dry the poop out of anything that close and you certainly wouldn't ever want to sit that close to the stove while its running... unless you're wearing a R-13 body suit.

Edit: I just realized you're talking about an insert and not a free standing stove. This wont be as bad with an insert, but I'd still think about moving the chairs a little further away if possible.

 

[boostnut]

Wet1 is right. Although I'm not sure what the minimum clearance is (check the manual on the Jotul website) I can say that I wouldn't want to spend much time in either of those chairs. Its gonna be warm to say the least. I would have no concerns with fire potential with a 24" clearance (once again, reference the manual) but I dont think the chairs are going to be occupied much.

 

[Wet1]

Looking at the manual, I'd say this is a no-go.

Cheach page 8 for the details:
http://www.jotul.com/FileArchive/Technical Documentation/Wood inserts (USA)/Jøtul C 450 Kennebec/Manual_C_450_011005.pdf

 

[hatrick]

I wonder if that 36" clearance more applies to items that are in front of the stove versus to the sides of the stove??

Thanks,
Eric

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

36" safe clearance to combustible furniture, per nfpa211
in any direction

but, yes the glass front will radiate the most intense heat

 

[stejus]

I have a TV stand at a 45 degree angle to the stove. Its about 2.5 feet from stove. Last winter I measured the temp on the TV stand closest to the stove. It maxed out at 76 degrees. The other thermometer at about 7 feet up read 88 degrees. Most of the heat from the insert will be forward and up. If you have cast on the face of the insert and a brick hearth, that will heat up as well. One other thing I do is have a small fan on the floor blowing cool air from the other room toward the stove. It helps move the air in front of the stove and TV so it doesn't collect in the corner. Invest in a decent humidifier, it will help keep wood and furniture from drying out.

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

I have a TV stand at a 45 degree angle to the stove. Its about 2.5 feet from stove. Last winter I measured the temp on the TV stand closest to the stove. It maxed out at 76 degrees. The other thermometer at about 7 feet up read 88 degrees. Most of the heat from the insert will be forward and up. If you have cast on the face of the insert and a brick hearth, that will heat up as well. One other thing I do is have a small fan on the floor blowing cool air from the other room toward the stove. It helps move the air in front of the stove and TV so it doesn't collect in the corner. Invest in a decent humidifier, it will help keep wood and furniture from drying out.

i personally agree that some of these codes are for worst case/ non intelligent or non observant users

 

[hatrick]

I would have to think that the blower on the Jotul 450 would help move a good amount of heat away from the stove (and in this case the two recliners) and out into the room.

I certainly don't want a fire hazard or even risk and at the same time, I don't have the option to move the recliners any farther away than two feet from the stove based on our room size and layout. I may be able to get an inch or two farther away but that is it.

 

[hatrick]

I wonder if the Jotul 350 Wintesport would be a better option being a lower btu unit and flush fit. The only catch with the 350 is that the firebox looks a bit wider than the 450 which would potentially make it an iinch or two closer to the furniture.

 

[Wood Heat Stoves]

I would have to think that the blower on the Jotul 450 would help move a good amount of heat away from the stove (and in this case the two recliners) and out into the room.

I certainly don't want a fire hazard or even risk and at the same time, I don't have the option to move the recliners any farther away than two feet from the stove based on our room size and layout. I may be able to get an inch or two farther away but that is it.

a blower will help, but not when the power is out

have you considered a heat shield on your recliner, lol

 

[ControlFreak]

We have an ottoman which has one side of the cushion that has melted from one of the kids placing it too close to our Napoleon 1401. With the hearth there, I think about 18" is the closest any furniture can get to the stove. If you hold bread a few inches in front of the glass, you can toast it.

To get the real scoop, you'll have to try it, see what happens, and then adjust accordingly.

 

[Wet1]

Eric,

How big of an area do you want to heat with your new insert and what are your goals regarding heating with it? Are long or overnight burns important?

Also note the "D" dimension in the manual. They are requiring 44.25" from the center line to the nearest side wall, so it makes sense that no other combustibles should be in that area of to the sides as well.

 

[Wet1]

We have an ottoman which has one side of the cushion that has melted from one of the kids placing it too close to our Napoleon 1401. With the hearth there, I think about 18" is the closest any furniture can get to the stove. If you hold bread a few inches in front of the glass, you can toast it.

To get the real scoop, you'll have to try it, see what happens, and then adjust accordingly.

Keep in mind that if the manual states no combustibles with "X" distance and you have combustibles within that area, in the event you have a fire your insurance company could/can/will tell you to pound sand...

 

[hatrick]

I want to put in an inset to use as supplemental heating. I only plan on running it at night when I get home from work (5pm-midnight) and on the weekends when I am home. Basically just to help lower the oil bill and have a useable fireplace that doesn't shoot all the heat up the chimney. No overnight burns needed.

Our current fireplace with the tinted glass folding front is nothing more than show and doesn't really put out any heat at all.

Our house is a 2100 ft. 2 story colonial with 8 ft. ceilings and mostly open arched doorways from room to room.

Any other options that would be a better fit would be appreciated.


Thanks,
Eric

 

[stejus]

Eric,

How big of an area do you want to heat with your new insert and what are your goals regarding heating with it? Are long or overnight burns important?

Also note the "D" dimension in the manual. They are requiring 44.25" from the center line to the nearest side wall, so it makes sense that no other combustibles should be in that area of to the sides as well.

I wonder why each insert clearance requirements are so different. The Jotul 450 vs the HI300 insert. They both extend out onto the hearth, they both are cast, they both are about the same dimmension and the clearance from center line to side wall differ. The Jotul is 44.25" and the HI300 is 26". Hmmm...

 

[stejus]

I want to put in an inset to use as supplemental heating. I only plan on running it at night when I get home from work (5pm-midnight) and on the weekends when I am home. Basically just to help lower the oil bill and have a useable fireplace that doesn't shoot all the heat up the chimney. No overnight burns needed.

Our current fireplace with the tinted glass folding front is nothing more than show and doesn't really put out any heat at all.

Our house is a 2100 ft. 2 story colonial with 8 ft. ceilings and mostly open arched doorways from room to room.

Any other options that would be a better fit would be appreciated.


Thanks,
Eric

My situation was like yours too. Take a look at the Hampton HI300. I thought i was going to be a night and weekend burner when I first started. Once you get this stove going, you're not going to want to let it go out. The warmth and atmosphere become addictive.

 

[hatrick]

I did actually look at the Hampton HI300 but I don't have the hearth depth because the firebox sticks out so far. I also looked at the HI200 but that tiny firebox looks too small for my liking.

I just checked out the Hampton specs and they have only an 11" from unit to adjacent wall spec. Where did you get the 26" spec.

It does seem odd that the HI300 only requires 11" while the Jotul is calling for so much more (after doing the math, it is approx. 29.75" from the edge of the firebox to the adjacent wall).

 

[stejus]

I did actually look at the Hampton HI300 but I don't have the hearth depth because the firebox sticks out so far. I also looked at the HI200 but that tiny firebox looks too small for my liking.

I just checked out the Hampton specs and they have only an 11" from unit to adjacent wall spec. Where did you get the 26" spec.

It does seem odd that the HI300 only requires 11" while the Jotul is calling for so much more (after doing the math, it is approx. 29.75" from the edge of the firebox to the adjacent wall).

I calculated the 26" spec. The spec is really 11 inches from side of unit (near door handle). I added another 15" to get to the centerline so I could compare centerline to centerline.

I would not be too concerned with hearth depth if you have a raised hearth. I didn't meet the hearth depth so I added a peice of stone to extend my hearth. Because it's a raised hearth, I only needed to be concerned with ember protection for the 18" clearence from the door. See pic.

 

[Wet1]

Hatrick,
I asked what you were heating and what your expectations were to get a better idea about how well these stoves would fit your needs. It sounds like you're just interested in a little extra heat, and these stoves should do that just fine. BUT, I completely agree with stejus that there's a very good chance you'll want more out of the stove in the future. Many of us started out just looking for a little supplemental heat to warm a cool area of the house and save a few dollars, but over time we've become full time wood burners. It can be addicting! If you buy one of these two stoves, I fear you'll 'out grow it' fairly quickly and end up wishing you had bought something with the potential to burn around the clock. Since it's common for a stove to last 15 to 20 years, I'd suggest getting something that allows you to burn 24/7 should you want to do that in the future. Not to mention, a larger stove would be a good back up in the event you were to loose power for an extended period.

With that said, a Blaze King Princess insert would be near the top of my list. I believe the clearance is only 16" on that stove (double check this) and with a 2.8 cu ft fire box and cat, you could easily get 12 to 24 hours burns (at low heat outputs) out of that stove should you want to. I'm sure others might have some other suggestions, but I'd suggest buying at least a 2.5 or 3 cu ft stove to get long burn times should you ever want them. You can always build small fires in a big stove, but you can't build big fires in a small stove...

 

[hatrick]

Wet1,

Thanks for all your help and for the recommendation on the Blaze King Princess. My wife and I looked at so many different models and the Jotul was really the one that had the visual look and feel we want for our home with the Hampton HI300 coming in second. I think both of these units can give the 24/7 use that you mention if I ever decide to go that route. The Jotul 450 ended up the real winner because the HI300 didn't work with our hearth depth (we have a 21.5" deep raised hearth). The only killer is that extreme 36" to combustile material that Jotul has in their manual. I really wonder about that and if it applies to objects in front of the unit. If you do the math (based on the Jotul manual) then the distance to a side room wall is more like 29.75 inches from the edge of the firebox which is less than the 36" they mention.

Here is the wording from the Jotul 450 manual. It certainly can be interpreted in different ways:

Clearance to Combustible Materials
• There may be no combustible materials located
anywhere within 36” (914 mm) of the front of the
fireplace insert. This precaution includes items
such as drapes or doors that could swing into the
area within 36” of the insert.

• Clearance (open space) must be maintained
between the fireplace insert and combustible
materials located above and to the side.
See figures 6 - 8 for minimum dimensions.


The first bullet point seems to be talking about combustible materials located in front of the insert while the second bullet point seems to be talking about objects to the sides of the unit but all that doesn't necessarily specify a specific distance. Maybe the 36" spec from the first bullet applies to the second or maybe not (or maybe I'm reaching for straws here). I wish I could call Jotul directly so they could clarify this but their website has no phone number and the dealers would just be interpreting this the same way we are.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[Wet1]

Aren't they made in Norway? Regardless, you're not meeting the requirements for the 450 either way. In the real world will it matter? Probably not, unless you're unfortunate enough to have a fire...

The 450 might be able to burn through the night (?), but I think you'd be hard pressed to make it with the 350!

Just be careful making your selection based on heavily weighing visual appeal as the main/only criteria, there's a good chance you won't be be happy with its performance in the long run if you do so. Best of luck with your search!

 

[oconnor]

One other piece to note on the 450 is the R value rating needed on floor protection in front of the unit - it is REALLY high at 2.92 - roughly 14 inches of brick gets you R 2.92. No idea why it is so high when other Jotul products are much lower.

As for heat to the side of the unit, I haven't noted large heat values to the sides - most of it is forward and up.

 

[stejus]

Here's a copy of the HI300 floor protection requirements. Take note of the Thermal floor protection section. It may be the same with Jotul with respect to a raised hearth. If this is the case, as long as the stove is sitting on a raised hearth you might not have to be concerned with such a high R value in front of the stove as long as there is ember protection of some sort.


Floor protection must be non-combustible, insulating material with an R value of
1.1 or greater.
* Hearth thickness of 0.5" with k value = 0.84", R value = 6 or greater.
** A non-combustible mantel may be installed at a lower height if the framing
is made of metal studs covered with a non-combustible board.

Thermal floor protection is not required if the unit is raised 3.5" minimum (measured
from the bottom of the stove). However, standard ember floor protection is required.
It will need to be a non-combustible material that covers 16" (406 mm) in the US and
18" (450 mm) in Canada to the front of the unit and 8" (200 mm) to the sides.

 

[oconnor]

stejus

your logic makes perfect sense, but from a specification angle, since Jotul didn't make mention of the raised hearth issue in the manual, meeting a code requirement would be tough using that approach.

That said, code doesn't prevent fires, logic does - had to use logic in my case - there was no way to meet the hearth R value in my install.

Hampton seems to have spent more time in the lab spec'ing out solutions - I suspect Jotul has used the value needed directly below the stove and applied it out all the way to 18".