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Liner pic, I am stumped and discouraged

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by brian89gp, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    My bad, I was going off the wrong assumption. I always thought that black crispy stuff was left behind in some amount.

    Correct. But for the flue fire to have consumed all the evidence it would have to of been burning inside the top of the stove and the first few inches of the flue as well as the next several feet as there is no creosote anywhere.

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  2. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    flue collar showing the fluffy ash that is in the liner and everywhere else in the stove. The two bolts holding it down must have stretched a lot, I had it down snug last November but they were very loose just now.

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  3. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    Top of the firebox. I did vacuum the ash off so I didn't get it in my eyes when I stuck my head in there, otherwise it is untouched.

    Attached Files:

  4. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    I wonder if that might have had something to do with things -- especially the stove top warping.
  5. blades

    blades Minister of Fire

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    Just my experience, 700 deg. with a blower running is going to be at least 900 without perhaps higher therefore you have definitely over fired the stove on a continuous basis. I do not understand the flue problem as described but with multiple sustained over firing anything is possible. years ago I had a runaway, double wall interior pipe to ceiling was glowing dark red interior steel baffle plate of stove partially melted,warped, & cracked, but the triple wall stainless no problem, one time shot though not multiple sustained.No damage to the double wall either although the paint on the wall by the stove blistered ( yes proper clearances, otherwise the mobile home would have gone up in a fireball)
    Stick on /magnetic temp gauges can be notoriously inaccurate and different points on the stove can have more than 200 deg shift in temp. as confirmed by my infrared temp gun. Even these will give different readings depending on distance to heat source although variance is very small. Also a flue fire generally makes a pretty distinct noise like a freight train rumbling through or a jet engine sound.
  6. Jon1270

    Jon1270 Minister of Fire

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    Whoa, there. The door, even up near the top, is going to be much cooler than the stovetop temperature. It's okay for the stovetop to hit 700, but not the door. You have indeed been overfiring this thing regularly, and that's consistent with everything else you've been saying about the flame, the glowing tubes, the liner damage, etc. Excessive draft is worth looking at if you simply can't control it with the normal air controls, but it sounds just as likely that you have been pushing the stove way too hard in the unrealistic hope that it can heat the whole house.
    PapaDave likes this.
  7. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    Thats along the lines of what I have been thinking. Gutted, stupid, and lucky are a strange trio of things to be feeling at once.

    On the buck the front face is unfortunately the only place. The stovetop is double layer with a 1" airgap that the blower blows the air through so stovetop temp is highly inaccurate. Didn't occur to me until now that my 700 is different then other peoples 700.

    Yes, guilty as charged. And on the same hand, many thanks to the draft, it was very hard to have a fire that did not peak and cruise at 700.
  8. Jon1270

    Jon1270 Minister of Fire

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    Yep, my insert presents the same challenge. The easiest way to measure actual stovetop temp is to shoot an infrared thermometer through the outlet at the top. There are also electronic thermometers that use high-temperature sensors, but installing one of those is a small project in itself.
    woodgeek likes this.
  9. Jon1270

    Jon1270 Minister of Fire

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    I'm curious -- what sort of burn times have you been getting at these temperatures? I would guess that you've had to reload pretty frequently to maintain these temps.
  10. mellow

    mellow Resident Stove Connoisseur

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    There are some new wood furnaces coming to market this summer/fall, one of them that I like is the Drolet Tundra, but you will be facing the same issue's with your draft with that as well.

    What cert's does the sweep have that is coming to inspect your setup?
  11. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    Both NCSG and CSIA as per your recommendation.

    Around 6 hours usually. Secondary burn cycle usually lasted around 1.5 hours give or take
  12. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    I am quickly coming to the same conclusion.

    A gassy wood furnace sounds like the right tool for the job. The other advantage to the furnace would be the ability to install a key damper on the pipe.
  13. mellow

    mellow Resident Stove Connoisseur

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    That is odd, at those temps with that size stove you should have been burning through a load in 2-3 hours, man this whole thing is odd, can't wait to hear back what the sweep thinks.
  14. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    With silver maple and sweet gum it was around 3 hours. 6 hours was a full load of honeylocust and 2 hours into the burn all I had left was a huge coal bed with little to no flames. That coal bed would hold the stove at 400 for several hours. The secondary burn was was a gates of hell type of burn.


    No joke. I will be the first to admit that I pushed the stove hard. There are two very improbable options to pick from, either I somehow burned so hot that I managed to hold the flue temps high enough for long enough to melt 316 stainless, or I had such a massive creosote buildup (which is unlikely cause I was burning so hot 24x7) that I lit off a chimney fire inside of the stove and the bottom of the liner.
  15. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    As you have found out, pedal to the metal burning is hard on stove and pipe. Is the stove be savable?
  16. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    I've started another thread to go into the furnace/boiler option so this one doesn't get derailed. I am getting options together on things to do with this stove to keep it in use so I can ask the sweep about it and also gather from the knowledge of the people here. The stove if ever used again will be at a much reduced burn rate more akin to recreational use.
    1. Smaller ID flue pipe. 5" or 5.5"? This would aslo be good in that the 6" was a real squeeze to get into the chimney.
    2. Worth going to the non-smooth bore pipe? The smooth bore is advertised as increasing flow and I am trying to decrease flow.
    3. Put a key damper in above the stove. This was also a recommendation from Buck when I called them about my early overfire problems.



    Indeed. I have sent pictures to Buck asking for an opinion on the warping and I will have the chimney sweep look at it when he is out as he is listed as a Buck repair person. I could not find any cracks or warping in the firebox or any of the welds though, just a warped top plate.
  17. chimneylinerjames

    chimneylinerjames Feeling the Heat

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    Is there any possibility there were some sort of chemicals burned here? Possibly drift wood, that is filled with salt. Maybe some strange creosote cleaning chemical? Anything??? I have heard of one strange case where bleach fumes were constantly being sucked up into the chimney and destroyed the liner, not like this but it was rotted out.
  18. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    Just the Rutland creosote stuff, but only maybe 6 scoops of it total over the heating season.
  19. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    I'm guessing overfiring rather than flue fire - I don't think you'd been generating any creosote, let alone enough to get a fire going in your chimney. The ash/dust in some of those pics looks like the same stuff that thinly coats the turbulators in my gassifying boiler - and there's no creosote in that thing downstream of the gassifying chamber.
  20. webby3650

    webby3650 Master of Fire

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    Except for the fact that the liner itself is rated for these kind of temps without damage, a flue fire is what causes this kinda damage, unless its a junk liner.
    And, in a previous post the OP said he was using less than ideal wood. It melted the aluminum face on the outside of the insulation! That's more damage than just running a stove too hot would cause.
  21. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Not sure I understood correctly if the OP said he had placed insulation batts on the top of the stove. And if so what kind of insulation and how thick. Any chance that could have caused excessively high flue temps if it was placed against the flue collar so as to prevent normal heat dissipation.
  22. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    The best I can find says liners are rated for around 1200-1300 continous. If I was theoretically running 700 stove face which some say is well over 900 stove top with the occasional romp into the 800 range stove face (heavens know what that is stove top), that is getting pretty close to the continous temp rating of the liner. It sounds about as plausable as a flue fire.


    I did say that, about half a cord of less then ideal wood that was at 24% moisture. If that is what caused a flue fire then I will admit it and tuck my head in shame. I did purposfully burn a couple of wet pieces to see if it would control the crazy secondary burn problem I was having but it was maybe a wheelbarrow full total and they were burned in a hot firebox with the secondaries going.

    I burned 5.5 cords:
    Sweet gum and silver maple that had been cut and stacked for a year, both were around 15% moisture.
    Honeylocust that had been cut and stacked for a good 5 years with less then 20% moisture.
    There was about half a cord of black walnut that was less then ideal, but it was still around 24% moisture


    A little story of the first few fires. After pouring over many posts on proper proceedure I did what most recommended, reload on a bed of coals and run with the air open from 15-30 minutes then slowly start closing it down once the secondaries were going real good Then I bought a stove tstat and found that following the procedure above was spiking the stat to 800-900, so I bought two more tstats of different brands. Same thing, 800-900. My reload procedure after being modified to stay out of the 800-900 range: Reload on coal bed and shut the air all the way down once the secondaries start the occasional flicker (around 5 minutes, 10 max) and bam, raging inferno that cruises at 700 for 1-2 hours. If I left the air open log enough for the secondaries to get going like most other people do I was gonna be in the 800-900 range in less then 20 minutes from reload.
  23. brian89gp

    brian89gp Feeling the Heat

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    Extra liner insulation, it is about 1/2" thick. I have no doubt that it caused the top plate to warp. But on the same hand there was a 165cfm blower running 24x7 that blew air in the 1" air gap between the top of the firebox and the top plate of the stove.
  24. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    That is not quite correct. First burn the coals down so that the bed is not too substantial. Then rake the coals to the front. Load the wood and start turning down the air in 5 or 10minutes depending on how quickly the fresh wood ignites. Generally I have the air closed most of the way after about 10 min. after a reload if the coals are hot. This method helps prevent a bowels of hell fire on a reload.
  25. Jon1270

    Jon1270 Minister of Fire

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    Yeah, I don't buy the idea that the insulation was a causative factor here.

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