Liner questions. Drolet escape 1800i install.

[terwin1]

I just bought a drolet escape 1800i to go into an existing masonry fireplace. clay flue. I measured up top and it is roughly 6-5/8" x 9" inside the clay. Existing fireplace is some kind of heatilator. Looking up through the damper plate it appears the heatilator goes up turning into a square shape roughly 12x12. The chimney though seems to be offset from this square. If the dog leg from the metal box top to the straight section of clay is clay lined can I get a 6" liner snaked through it? It seems to me that I would have the required masonry clearances to run a 6" flex liner but probably not have room for insulation. What should I do with this size of opening? Ovalized? Do they make any kind of loose insulation that can be stuffed in from the top around the liner? I don't like the setting type compounds like the thermix as I fear any need to remove the liner later might be a nightmare. Looking for advice and alternatives as well as any reccomendations on brands of liner kits. Selkirk, woodland direct, Rockford, Olympia?

Thanks,
Tucker

 

[bholler]

Ovalized?

yes that is what you should do. Can you actually confirm that you have proper clearances the entire lenght of the chimney?

Do they make any kind of loose insulation that can be stuffed in from the top around the liner? I don't like the setting type compounds like the thermix as I fear any need to remove the liner later might be a nightmare.

No do not use loose fill it will slowly work its way down and into the fireplace or simply compact down so you have a rock hard lump at the bottom and nothing at the top. You can still pull out a liner poured in with thermix. But if you don't have enough room for wrap you definitely don't have enough room for the 1" of thermix required.

 

[terwin1]

bholler, Thanks for the reply.

here's some more information. I burned in this clay flue fireplace all last winter with no issues. Actually before burning looking down into the flue it didn't look like it had really ever been used other than for the occasional look of a fire which was about all it was good for I found out. This year so as to get some heat from my fire I'm putting in an insert. this is an exterior chimney on the east side of my home. I'm reading some mixed things around this site about the need for insulation. I've been reading on here for awhile now to prepare for this. It seems my options are: (block off plate at bottom and sealed well at cap on all. roxul under cap?) A) run the 6" liner without insulation. B) 5.5" insulated C) bust out clay flue, Insulated 6".

First concern is always safety of course followed by budget. This is stepping stone home for me and the insert will go with the house when I'm ready to move up in 5-8 years. What I am struggling with is how in a fireplace I assume all my heat was going up out the chimney with no issues so wouldn't an insert that is more efficient putting more of the heat into the room on less wood rather than all heat out the exhaust actually be safer than a fireplace fire from a heat stand point? Chimney will be roughly 15' high still need to measure, but figuring 8' ceilings plus rafter height plus height from peak to chimney cap that's probably close. Please correct me on any of this that isn't correct because i'm trying to learn all the whys and hows I can before I buy my liner. Insulation does two things. heat protection to combustibles located against any brick and keeping flue temp up to prevent creosote I think. On such a short run wouldn't it be easier to keep flue temperatures up anyway for the prevention of creosote, but at the cost of draft which apparently increases with height. This is my worry about the 5.5" liner(draft speed). To me it seems like a 6" flex liner(leaning toward the one at firesidechimneysupply.com) inside of good clay inside of brick would be safe which is the direction I'm leaning. I don't trust myself to break out the clay flue and it seems like that would not be great for structural integrity regardless who does it. Is a bare flex liner in a set up like I have just asking for disaster?

From what I understand now the liner in the clay/brick upright is probably not the area of concern, but rather the area from the top metal square(heatilator/heatform) to where the clay starts. the dogleg or transition to the right I think may not be clay lined. chimney is offset the right when facing the fireplace. I will put together a rough 3d model of what I think is there here shortly. I need to get the old damper cut out so I can see more. are there any pictures I can take to help understanding the situation?

 

[terwin1]

I missed the ovalized comment. ill call that option D. It looks like I would need 4.5 x 8.15 according to Rockford chimney supply's calculator. I suppose at this point I probably need to get some scrap pieces or roll up some tin to same shapes and cut out damper so I can work to see what will snake through. Thanks again. and I still would like to understand what of my above rambling is close to correct in thinking if anyone can help.

 

[bholler]

What I am struggling with is how in a fireplace I assume all my heat was going up out the chimney with no issues so wouldn't an insert that is more efficient putting more of the heat into the room on less wood rather than all heat out the exhaust actually be safer than a fireplace fire from a heat stand point?

No because with all the heat of your fire in the fireplace you are also sending tons of dilution air up the chimney. So exhaust temps of a stove will be higher. You are also assuming that your chimney is safe to burn as an open fireplace which is a big assumption considering you did not say you could confirm that you have proper clearances.

Insulation does two things. heat protection to combustibles located against any brick and keeping flue temp up to prevent creosote

Yes that is correct.

On such a short run wouldn't it be easier to keep flue temperatures up anyway for the prevention of creosote,

Yes somewhat but it is still an issue. 15' is not that short either.

This is my worry about the 5.5" liner(draft speed)

You need to talk to the stove manufacturer about a 5.5" and see if it will work.

To me it seems like a 6" flex liner(leaning toward the one at firesidechimneysupply.com) inside of good clay inside of brick would be safe which is the direction I'm leaning.

The problem is you dont know if you have clearance so you dont know if it is a good chimney.

I don't trust myself to break out the clay flue and it seems like that would not be great for structural integrity regardless who does it.

It really is not a diy project and no it will not hurt the structure if done right. That being said if you are planning on moving the insert when you move I would not break out the liners I would go with an oval.

From what I understand now the liner in the clay/brick upright is probably not the area of concern, but rather the area from the top metal square(heatilator/heatform) to where the clay starts. the dogleg or transition to the right I think may not be clay lined. chimney is offset the right when facing the fireplace. I will put together a rough 3d model of what I think is there here shortly. I need to get the old damper cut out so I can see more. are there any pictures I can take to help understanding the situation?

I am not sure what we need to see? If your clay is 6.5" inside I doubt you would even get a bare 6" liner down there. You need to go oval or remove the tiles.

 

[terwin1]

awesome, thank you. Seems like insulated oval is the best all around if it will fit. Does oval flex tend to be more difficult to bend? like through my offset section would need to. That makes sense with the egt's. I think I read something that the correct clearance for an existing chimney is 4" of brick to nearest combustible. Does that sound right? how do I even check that? nearest combustible being the rafters maybe? If memory serves me correctly I think its very close to that. will measure. Assuming existing clearances are ok will an insulated oval liner be sufficient? If the clearances are not? 1/2" insulation seems to be the requirement.

If 4" is correct:
With the 4" clearance is that with a good clay flue or doesn't matter? in the dogleg section I discussed earlier is it probable that there is no clay in there and just brick or would that be obscenely poor work and highly unlikely. The chimney seems to be relatively well done so far. I haven't gotten there yet. hopefully tonight I will be able to see. Basically the point I am trying to get to is knowing which of the ifs make or break the insulated oval liner being safe and as close as possible to code. pouring $1000 into an oval liner isn't ideal, but it'll pay for itself and I have way too much time in fixing everything else wrong with this house to chance watching her burn down.

Thanks again for your input.

 

[bholler]

I think I read something that the correct clearance for an existing chimney is 4" of brick to nearest combustible. Does that sound right?

No you need 4" nominal masonry (which is actually 3.5" then you need in your case where it is an external chimney 1" of space between the outside of the masonry to any combustible material. If you do not have that 1" space the entire length of the chimney you need insulation without question. Either 1/2" blanket or 1" of pour in. And no the existence or condition of a clay liner has absolutely no impact on the requirement to insulate. With insulation you still need the 4" nominal masonry but you can have combustible material touching the masonry structure then.

 

[terwin1]

I think I got it. 3.5" masonry + insulated oval = good to go. gonna go make me a trial piece. oval @ 4.5 x 8.15 plus insulation so if 5.5 x 9.15" oval fits the whole way down I should be good as long as I can make my bends.

Thanks,
Tucker

 

[bholler]

no you will be at least 6 by 9.75. You have the thickness of the liner plus the insulation will not be perfectly flat plus the stainless mesh ext. It will still be a tight fit. Are your liners aligned well or do they have offset joints at all?

 

[terwin1]

I haven't checked yet for that specifically. last time I looked down the flue though any mismatching didn't stick out to me on the ones i could see and those types of things usually do. I will check. My flue measured 6-5/8 x roughly 9. I need to re-measure. At the time I thought the 9" measurement wasn't going to be real important. the tight fit concerns me with bend radius. I think I need to just try and pull piece 6 x 9.75 bent sheet metal through it and see what happens. after I cut out the damper plate so I can physically see the dog leg. what started as "drop a liner in" sure does get fun.

 

[bholler]

what started as "drop a liner in" sure does get fun.

Yeah they are not all as easy as some guys here make them out to be.

 

[terwin1]

so my true flue measurements are 6.5" x 10.75". The clay flue is misaligned some, but it doesn't look like it will be and issue with oval. I would say the tile are more twisted a little while maintaining the same center axis rather than being offset if that makes sense.

I have a question about chimney flow. On Rockford's website they size oval liners based on cross sectional area of recommended flue. so for 6" round it would be 3^2=9x3.14=28.26in^2.
using their chart 5x8.15=28.22 and there are other combinations that are close 5x8.75=30.4 or 4.5x9.1=28.21 . I think the first option is the best since my flue is offset from the center of my insert and I will need more bending room in 10.75" direction than the 6" direction.

My question: being oval doesn't this affect draft/flow since gases move up in a helix/swirl typically? so wouldn't it need to be a little more area for the oval versus the round to have the same flow or is too much extra area worse because there's more area for the slower moving gas columns to cool. or is this negligible usually. oval chimney is non-refundable so I want to make sure I order correctly the first time. probably over thinking it. better than under thinking it. recommendation out of the options? will 30.4 vs 28.22 make that much difference. price is negligible.

Thanks,
Tucker

 

[bholler]

My question: being oval doesn't this affect draft/flow since gases move up in a helix/swirl typically? so wouldn't it need to be a little more area for the oval versus the round to have the same flow or is too much extra area worse because there's more area for the slower moving gas columns to cool. or is this negligible usually. oval chimney is non-refundable so I want to make sure I order correctly the first time. probably over thinking it. better than under thinking it. recommendation out of the options? will 30.4 vs 28.22 make that much difference. price is negligible.

Call the stove manufacturer and ask them. We typically go up to a 7" when we ovalize unless the chimney is exceptionally high.

 

[terwin1]

thoughts?

email convo with SBI

Everything else that I have read has said that code for a chimney with liner for ul rating must be as follows. 3.5” brick with 1” air gap to any combustible. If air gap cannot be confirmed then insulated liner is required. Are you positive that a plain stainless liner will suffice?

Thanks,

Tucker


From: Gilles Beaudoin [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tech SBI
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2016 4:27 PM
To: Erwin, Tucker
Subject: RE: chimney liner for escape 1800i insert

SS liners need not be insulated so it will fir perfect in your chimney

Gilles Beaudoin

SBI- Servicetechnique

SBI-Technical Service

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De : Erwin, Tucker [mailto:[email protected]]
Envoyé : 6 octobre 2016 16:01
À : Tech SBI
Objet : chimney liner for escape 1800i insert

I just purchased a drolet escape 1800i from menards. I live in NE Indiana. Chimney is masonry 15-20ft in height. I live in town. I do not have enough room to run an insulated round stainless liner @ 6” diameter by the time I get insulation on it. My inside flue dimensions are 6.5x10.75. If I ran 5” I could use round with the insulation. Insulation adds about 1.5” to diameter. Otherwise I need to get an oval chimney liner. Some websites match chimney liner size based on cross sectional area. 6” area = 28.27in^2 so an oval would be like 5x8.15 to have a similar area.

My questions are:

A) can I run 5” where I live and being in town with a shorter chimney. (probably not)

B) if I use oval how should I size it? Oval wont flow as well as round so I would think the area would need to be greater. Biggest oval I could fit is like 5x9.2=36in^2. Then again if 5” can work for some people I’m not sure how critical this is.

 

[terwin1]

their usa safety standard is listed as UL1482, UL737 on the tech sheet for the stove

 

[bholler]

I don't see how they can possibly say you don't need insulation without inspecting for clearances. Canada has very similar requirements as we do.

 

[terwin1]

looking at owens corning mineral wool thermafiber r-15 ultrabat. Safe to use in place of roxul?

 

[begreen]

If it's pure mineral wool it should be ok.

 

[terwin1]

ended up finding roxul at the local Home Depot.

 

[terwin1]

Do I need to seal up anything with any kind of silicone other than what is listed. plan on using high temp silicone on everything unless something else is more effective.

Top plate--> Clay flue
bottom plate-->liner
bottom plate-->masonry

liner-->appliance connector?
appliance connector --> insert?

 

[terwin1]

also can anyone point me in the direction of a post on here detailing getting the insert into the hole? Is there some slick way of doing this. Right now the plan is my brother and I just picking it up and working it back and forth til its in. maybe try rolling it on some pieces of conduit or something? I'm sure there are heavier units but 400lbs and two people wasn't fun even getting in the door. any harm in pulling out fire brick, baffle plate thing, tubes, maybe door to cut some weight.

 

[begreen]

I have a sheet of metal that I put down on the hearth. That makes it slide in much easier and protects the hearth from scuffing. No harm in pulling out firebrick and removing the door to reduce weight. Just remember how they go back in. Take a picture as a reminder.

 

[terwin1]

good idea. I was going to put down sheet metal anyway incase the ugly fire brick my insert will sit on is visible. the insert may have to sit back in the hole a little even with an elbow. Was going to paint it barbeque black. I'll prolly have to touch up after sliding stove on it.

Thanks

 

[terwin1]

any advice on my sealant question? getting mixed info with furnace cement on liner-->appliance connector and connector-->stove end. silicone up top and bottom block off plate?

 

[terwin1]

liner was ordered from fireside chimney supply. looks decent. feels like its not going to be so super heavy that I cant get it on the roof. had a very competitive price. American made supposedly. Free shipping. .006 wall 316Ti flex liner. Ordered Monday morning. Was on my door step at 1pm Tuesday. very impressed. Had to contact them to get order info and tracking number. apparently my email doesn't like them. great customer service. great company so far.