Making Pellet burners better

[novakm]

Hi,

I have been lurking around here for quite some time now. After reading thousands of posts, I feel like pellet stoves have along way to go to become a viable alternative to fossil fuel for the average Joe. I'd like to get your view on what issues the stove makers should be concentrating on first in order to make pellet stoves better. I'm specifically leaving out cost and supply issues because they should work themselves out once there is a critical mass of pellet users.

If you could wave a magic wand and make your pellet stove better, what would you fix? Please include the stove brand and model. Here is what I would fix on my Accentra Insert:
1) Make it quieter
2) Eliminate burn pot scraping
3) Eliminate ash clumping
4) Make it not care whose pellets I feed it

 

[smirnov3]

Hi,

I have been lurking around here for quite some time now. After reading thousands of posts, I feel like pellet stoves have along way to go to become a viable alternative to fossil fuel for the average Joe. I'd like to get your view on what issues the stove makers should be concentrating on first in order to make pellet stoves better. I'm specifically leaving out cost and supply issues because they should work themselves out once there is a critical mass of pellet users.

If you could wave a magic wand and make your pellet stove better, what would you fix? Please include the stove brand and model. Here is what I would fix on my Accentra Insert:
1) Make it quieter
2) Eliminate burn pot scraping
3) Eliminate ash clumping
4) Make it not care whose pellets I feed it

1) free standing stoves are far quieter than inserts - solved
2) yup
3) I would say ash in general is a nuisance
4) the Accentra already doesn't care. different pellets will give slightly different performance, but none of them will stop it cold

my list of things to change to make stoves more mass market:

1) make it into a furnace - most people don't want localized heat
2) automated pellet transfer from a large hopper - Joe Average doesn't want to think about his heating system (honestly, Joe Average doesn't want to be bothered by thinking at all, period.)
3) Huge ash pan, that is easy to pull out once a month & dumped, without shutting down the stove
4) burn pot scraping - if it needs to be done once a year, then Joe Average will just have it done as part of a yearly tune up. Otherwise, he won't do it.
5) make it multi-fuel - if Joe Average is burning pellets, then we won't have enough trees to go around

 

[Delta-T]

http://www.woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/P4PelletboilerDataSheet.pdf

Maybe this is to your liking. I don't believe there is a technology problem, its a $$ problem here in the US.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

Making pellet burners better is s toughy to answer.

The issue of the type of fuel comes to mind here.

Depending on what you are trying to burn can make all the difference in the world as to how the stove works.

I have been running and working with pellet stoves for near 20 years now and have reworked many things on these critters to try and make them better.

I run nut shells for fuel and this takes some tweeking of the burn pots and the feed rates as well as the air /fuel ratio.

The next guy that comes along wants to burn olive pits so he has a different set of issues to deal with.

Every fuel has a different ash content as well as to what shape and size of burn grate that will work well.

I really dont think that there is a lot that can be done in the corporate sector to make current stoves all that much better at burning the available supplies of pellets.



If you are handy with and have access to tools, you can do as I do and tweek things to suit.


Best

Snowy

 

[MCPO]

Hi,

I have been lurking around here for quite some time now. After reading thousands of posts, I feel like pellet stoves have along way to go to become a viable alternative to fossil fuel for the average Joe. I'd like to get your view on what issues the stove makers should be concentrating on first in order to make pellet stoves better. I'm specifically leaving out cost and supply issues because they should work themselves out once there is a critical mass of pellet users.

If you could wave a magic wand and make your pellet stove better, what would you fix? Please include the stove brand and model. Here is what I would fix on my Accentra Insert:
1) Make it quieter
2) Eliminate burn pot scraping
3) Eliminate ash clumping
4) Make it not care whose pellets I feed it

I think your expectations might be too high. Economics come into play in just about every facet of the industry. Pellet stove technology is probably as good as it will ever get basically because it`s a space heater . Building and selling a near perfect and fool proof stove would approach the cost of a total central heating system.
1... It`s economically near impossible to make a much quieter pellet stove than what is already employed in some current models.
2....Pot scraping is at least in part caused by the quality of pellets burned and elements inherent in wood products .
3.....ash clumping does not occur with all stoves and again, when it does is in great part caused by the quality of the pellets.
4.....Harman has almost completely solved the problem of whose pellets goes in the hopper. Mine burns em all.

 

[Dr_Drum]

I think that it is a consistency of fuel issue to really make the stoves perform much better. Though as Gio stated, some will burn them all, but with varying levels of performance and adjustment. Imagine trying to make an oil furnace that will burn K-1, HHO, gasoline, alcohol, diesel, biodiesel, or whatever.
My wish list would be to make them have a "radiant heating option", like a normal wood stove but with the combustion blower needed. The circulator fan could be optional. I would then have the combustion blower mounted in the venting outside the house.
Mike -

 

[mascoma]

Sounds like some of you have not done your research... alot of you requests have already been answered... and the rest of you need to buy an Gas Stove.
Solid fuel takes work.

 

[hossthehermit]

Hi,

I have been lurking around here for quite some time now. After reading thousands of posts, I feel like pellet stoves have along way to go to become a viable alternative to fossil fuel for the average Joe. I'd like to get your view on what issues the stove makers should be concentrating on first in order to make pellet stoves better. I'm specifically leaving out cost and supply issues because they should work themselves out once there is a critical mass of pellet users.

If you could wave a magic wand and make your pellet stove better, what would you fix? Please include the stove brand and model. Here is what I would fix on my Accentra Insert:
1) Make it quieter
2) Eliminate burn pot scraping
3) Eliminate ash clumping
4) Make it not care whose pellets I feed it

1) free standing stoves are far quieter than inserts - solved
2) yup
3) I would say ash in general is a nuisance
4) the Accentra already doesn't care. different pellets will give slightly different performance, but none of them will stop it cold

my list of things to change to make stoves more mass market:

1) make it into a furnace - most people don't want localized heat
2) automated pellet transfer from a large hopper - Joe Average doesn't want to think about his heating system (honestly, Joe Average doesn't want to be bothered by thinking at all, period.)
3) Huge ash pan, that is easy to pull out once a month & dumped, without shutting down the stove
4) burn pot scraping - if it needs to be done once a year, then Joe Average will just have it done as part of a yearly tune up. Otherwise, he won't do it.
5) make it multi-fuel - if Joe Average is burning pellets, then we won't have enough trees to go around

The only thing the Revolution doesn't do on Anton's list is the autofeed. Well, the ashpan won't go a month with the pellets I burn

 

[exoilburner]

The existing bevvy of stoves got really viable when oil prices sky-rocketed like they did in July 08. That's why I got my pellet burner.

In July of 08 the cost of 1M BTU of heat:
Oil $32
Propane $30
Electricity $22 (northwest electric rates are low by comparison)
Nat Gas $16
Pellets $14
(BTU cost figured with DOE Energy Information Agency calculator)

Saved money. Didn't want to be held hostage by a single fuel source. Plus pellets are a locally produced fuel for me.

 

[dac122]

If you could wave a magic wand and make your pellet stove better, what would you fix? Please include the stove brand and model. Here is what I would fix on my Accentra Insert:
1) Make it quieter
2) Eliminate burn pot scraping
3) Eliminate ash clumping
4) Make it not care whose pellets I feed it

For my aging Jamestown J1000, just make it quieter. Of course new motors might just take care of that. Otherwise, I bet I could run that baby for weeks without every scraping the burn pot, and it seems to handle anything I feed it.

For my Englander 25-PDVC, yes, eliminate burn pot scraping, ash clumping and less vulnerable to auger jams.

 

[Augmister]

Pellet stove are NOT for everyone. Most people have been spoiled by oil and gas which pretty much run on their own, as long as the fuel is paid for. Few if any people do their own maintenance so it is pretty much out of sight and mind.... as long as the heating system works and they are warm.

When we get into the teeth of our pending economic collapse, that will change. There will be massive wood poaching due to unemployment and underemployment and folks will do anything to keep warm and cook food. I am already seeing the early stages of this now. People going on State land at night and grabbing downed trees. We are headed back to the 1930's. Think Haiti.... everything that can be burned will be used. Wood stoves will be white hot so make sure you protect your trees on your property. It would not surprise me if pellet stoves will prove to be the premier method of heating.... as long as 1) we can find a supply of pellets and 2) can afford them. (If you can pick up a cheap wood stove, buy it for insurance! Two or more if you want to barter!)

The pellet stove manufacturing industry would be wasting their time and money if they want to make "changes" for public acceptance. Fewer folks are going to be able to afford the luxury of a pellet stove once the economy tanks. It is public acceptance and having the cash that would allow them to make any change.
Look at this board, thousands have adapted to and embraced pellets. Today: those that don't adapt get left behind with $2000+ utility bills. Tomorrow: those that can't pay for oil or gas heat will get cords of US Government supplied wood.
Simple Obamanomics!

 

[Snowy Rivers]

I am using Hazel Nut shells at a cost of 4 cents per pound and around 8500-9000 BTU per pound

CHEAP me thinks.


For this pitiful little amount I can put up with clinkers, clankers, Cankers, tankers, soot,smoke and all sorts of issues..


Snowy

 

[tonyd]

On your Accentra Insert, remove the decorative grate that blocks the hot air discharge. The castings on the back side are dead FLAT. Air hits it like a brick wall. The castings need to be tapered from the inside so air flow is not impeded. I have a landscaping trailer with a tall expanded steel fold down ramp. When you trailer it, it feels like you have a parachute out. You would think with the expanded steel the air would flow right through. Not so. The grate on the stove does the same thing. With it off, the heat can be felt 5 ft from the stove. Not so with it on. The rough, flat castings also contribute to the noise. Needs to be redesigned. HTHs

 

[tjnamtiw]

Unless I missed it, no one addressed improving efficiency! Amazing to me considering we are just barely at or above 75%. When you look at my stoves you see nice round tubes over which the exhaust gases flow. Nothing is there to break up the laminar flow and nothing is there to increase the exposed heat exchanger area. They could have easily made the tubes corrugated to increase surface area and put fins inside to expose more hot surface to the flow of circulating air. If they were older and out of warranty, I just might be tempted. If the pellet producers don't reduce their costs and subsequently our costs, pellets will go the way of other novelties unless we can wring more btu's out of each pellet. Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency.
And yes, they are space heaters. Face it!

 

[smalltown]

I really like my Quad Castile. If I could wish for one thing it would be a quieter convection blower assembly.

 

[summit]

Unless I missed it, no one addressed improving efficiency! Amazing to me considering we are just barely at or above 75%. When you look at my stoves you see nice round tubes over which the exhaust gases flow. Nothing is there to break up the laminar flow and nothing is there to increase the exposed heat exchanger area. They could have easily made the tubes corrugated to increase surface area and put fins inside to expose more hot surface to the flow of circulating air. If they were older and out of warranty, I just might be tempted. If the pellet producers don't reduce their costs and subsequently our costs, pellets will go the way of other novelties unless we can wring more btu's out of each pellet. Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency.
And yes, they are space heaters. Face it!

Thats why the Harman heat exchangers are the best: big, rugged, 2" deep accordians... way better than the 1/2 rd tubes you see in most pellet stoves... Its a wonder more companies don't take advantage of some kind of larger heat exchange surface... the enviro maxx/omega/vf170 do a good job w/ almost 1200 sq inches of heat exchanger, and the cumberland stove has some wrap around heat exchanger system that looks pretty horny. It pisses me off (no offense to mike houlton) to see the Englander stove with a basic flat steel firebox that has a blower pushing air by: the more sq inches you expose to the heat in the stove, the better the heat output will be, hands down, nuff said. USSC stoves do the same thing, and it seems like a waste of possible efficiency. Sure, they all get hot, but some do a better job getting hot and transferring the heat than others.

 

[yknotcarpentry]

alright I admit i skipped over half of these posts... but to answer the original ?'s

#1. yes the stove is noisey, but its in the same room that I am sitting in and running, when my furnace down in the basement kicks on (not so often) 20' away and a level down I CAN HEAR IT.
#2/3 and yes 4 yes there is scraping due to ash and clumping, all varying on pellets, there's also cleaning the furnace "once a year" which should probably be done more often depending on the furnace, I know mine would benefit greatly from monthly cleanings, but is it done, no. Ok now lets compare to a wood stove, constantly scooping out ash or dumping the drawer, burning differant "qualities" of wood, moisture content etc. I think the pellet stoves are pretty darn good, I view them as less work then my wood stove used to be (heat is not as intense in the room, but seems to disapate throughout the whole house more so than the wood stove) and compared to the oil furnace, well it has remained either cheaper to even with oil to run pellets that where made in the USA or nieghboring countries and not some country we are at war with. The material used to make the pellets are from waste materials of other products (yes I understand it probably took natural resources to make them, but so does anything else we use, most likely the guy splitting your firewood is using a gas powered splitter, or the oil we get from other countries is processes further here, etc..) so all in all it just feels good. Can pellet stoves get better, I am sure they can, Can the material used to make the pellets get better, of course they can, are those pellets already out there? that burn great, less ash, no clumping, etc etc YES.. no matter what stove its in , you just need to spend the extra $20 or $50 a ton.... Sometimes pennies on the bag will go a LONG WAY....

 

[novakm]

Sounds like some of you have not done your research... alot of you requests have already been answered... and the rest of you need to buy an Gas Stove.
Solid fuel takes work.

Mascoma,

You are getting petty close to what I'm thinking here.
There are stoves that don't need scraping
There are stoves that are quiet
There are stoves where the ash never clumps
There are stoves that don't care who's pellets you run.

Seems to me that the stove designers have found low cost ways to eliminate all these problems, but try to find one stove that combines all of these great features. The European central boilers CLAIM to to be better, but they are extremely complex and outrageously expensive. I have been toying with the idea of creating another choice, and I wanted to get a feel for what others see as the issues that need to be resolved.

I'm surprised that no one metioned reliability. I would guess that most on this board would agree that a pellet sove, boiler, or furnace is not reliable enough to be the primary heating, unless you have a fossill fuel backup.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

"I would guess that most on this board would agree that a pellet sove, boiler, or furnace is not reliable enough to be the primary heating, unless you have a fossill fuel backup."

For a lot of folks here their stove is their primary heating system and their backups vary from a stock of replacement parts to wood stoves to other pellet stoves to conventional carbohydrate consumers of various kinds, the only folks that have a problem with using pellet devices as primary heating systems are:

1: Some insurance companies.
2: Mortgage lenders.

As for fossil fuel burners being reliable you must have been extremely lucky if you haven't had one of them go belly up at the wrong time.

 

[novakm]

4.....Harman has almost completely solved the problem of whose pellets goes in the hopper. Mine burns em all.

Gio,

I'm also running a Harman. Based on what I read here. it's a lot less "pellet sensitive" than many other stoves. I would say of all the different brands I have tried, none is "better" than another, but it does react differently every time I change brand. I only use PFI "Premium" grade pellets. This is fine for me, but I frequently travel, and I can't expect the wife or kids to be attuned to the differences based on brand for the one week I'm away.

 

[novakm]

I think that it is a consistency of fuel issue to really make the stoves perform much better. Though as Gio stated, some will burn them all, but with varying levels of performance and adjustment. Imagine trying to make an oil furnace that will burn K-1, HHO, gasoline, alcohol, diesel, biodiesel, or whatever.
My wish list would be to make them have a "radiant heating option", like a normal wood stove but with the combustion blower needed. The circulator fan could be optional. I would then have the combustion blower mounted in the venting outside the house.
Mike -

Dr Drum,

I can certainly agree with you, and several others, that it's impossible to make a pellet stove that will anticipate everything that someone might put in them. I do think it's possible,though, to make a stove that can burn any "PFI Premium Grade wood pellet", with no adjustments or differences.

 

[novakm]

One other note,

I'm not trying to slam the pellet industry. I just feel that the technology is still in it's infancy, and there is a long way to go.

Kind of like when the model T came out. The model T needed oil changes every few hundred miles, and broke don on a regualr basis. Over time, improvements came, and now I can go thousands of mles with no worries or maintainece at all

 

[jtakeman]

My 2 cents.

A better rating system by both the stove industry and the pellet industry for fuel/stove compatibility. I know PFI is working on a rating system that is supposed to address this. But nothing has been released in stone yet! Will the stove companies comply? Or do the usual over rating!

A more adjustable user interface(control panel) that allows tweaking for varying fuels. Similar to Bixby's almost infinite adjustments for almost every function of the stove(except the safeties obviously!). Some of us are actually capable of doing this! There limited proprietary interfaces just don't cut it! Tweaking for fuel variations should be near infinite as the fuel being burned isn't even the same bag to bag! Let alone batch to batch.

Yes more efficient heat exchangers and overall stove affiance! But also higher than needed CFM's for the convection blower. With more adjustments to speed than just High and Low speed. Using as much convection air as possible to remove the heat from the heat exchanger. Low speed is to low for medium heat setting and High speed is to high.

With today's technology at hand, No reason for sub par features on these stoves. There charging enough for them. Load them with something out standing!

 

[MCPO]

One other note,

I'm not trying to slam the pellet industry. I just feel that the technology is still in it's infancy, and there is a long way to go.

Kind of like when the model T came out. The model T needed oil changes every few hundred miles, and broke don on a regualr basis. Over time, improvements came, and now I can go thousands of mles with no worries or maintainece at all

Ya just aint gonna get any higher with the combustion end of it? I mean theres nothing left but powder . The only significant improvement with regards to efficiency is heat transfer / less heat out the vent pipe.