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MaryAnne the Tarm MB30 looking for all the Mike Mulligans

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by aka.bugle, Oct 16, 2013.

  1. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    MaryAnne is a Tarm MB30 boiler... 72,000 btu

    DSCN1197.JPG
    she will be hooked up to 1000 gallons of water storage (my tanks, Mark Schoellig did the welding)

    DSCN1198.JPG

    and I'm planning on using these 2 freon tanks for expansion tanks. (114 gallons expansion tank total) I'm hoping that mounting them ontop the 1000 gallon storage will be sufficiently tall. (could they be mounted on the floor?) I can't afford a large bladder tank.
    DSCN1191.JPG

    these 5 rads will be the main heat for the home, with some pex in floor radiant in the bathrooms later.
    DSCN1201.JPG
    So far... I've purchased an automag for a dump zone, a Termovar loading unit, and a few 2" and 1 1/4" fittings

    I'm going to have alot of questions!!!
    BoilerMan likes this.

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  2. Nofossil

    Nofossil Moderator Emeritus

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    Looks like you're off to a great start. Lots of questions and decisions. There are a couple of plumbing stickies at the top of this forum that go over two of the most common basic configurations, but even within those there are nearly uncountable decisions. You're in the right place - folks here are really knowledgeable and willing to help. Be ready to post diagrams and sketches as you progress.
  3. OldStoneHouse

    OldStoneHouse Member

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    Very nice rads!
    flyingcow likes this.
  4. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    thanks! 25 bucks a pop (my back!) hauled em home, sat for a year, pressure tested them, had a mobile sandblast guy clean them up, then I gave them a coat of acid etch primer and 2 coats of 2013 Mercedes Benz Iridium Grey. (still got that diisocyanate guilt trip though!)
    flyingcow likes this.
  5. WireNut

    WireNut New Member

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    Mobile sandblaster sounds like a great idea, mind if I ask what you paid? I need to get mine redone, and I was going to send them out to be blasted and powdercoated to get the years of housepaint someone put on them off....but the cost was outrageous....buy my own sandblaster and compressor that could run it outrageous.
  6. hobbyheater

    hobbyheater Minister of Fire

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    aka.bugle

    You will need boiler return water protection .;) The return water temperature from storage can be continuously low ( 90 /120 F) . this will give you major creosote problems both on the boiler firebox walls and up the chimney .If you can keep the water in the boiler at 160 /170 F you will have a lot more success with regards to a cleaner burn .
    I learned this lesson the hard way 30+ years ago !;sick

    Welcome to"Hearth" !!!==c
  7. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    I think his termovar loading unit would handle the return temp protection?

    Your welder should be able to field a few questions & pointers. :)
  8. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    but Man... is he busy! (the termovar loading unit does this, but Mark is saying the circulator on the loading unit is probably too small)
  9. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    $500 ... but he did do a couple extra doo-dads!

    Attached Files:

  10. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    Looks like you've done your homework!

    Termovar loading unit should have plenty of capacity for a 72 kBTU boiler.

    Shouldn't need dump zone if top of boiler is three or four feet below the top of storage. Loading unit should be able to provide power-fail heat dump to storage, assuming you mean a Termovar loading unit with integral low resistance check and not a Termovar return protection mixing valve.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
    Chris Hoskin and Coal Reaper like this.
  11. hobbyheater

    hobbyheater Minister of Fire

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    Yes I believe you are right ! I missed that opps !
  12. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    My loading unit has a 3 speed Grundfoss 15-58 circ. It works great on speed 1, with my 140kbtu boiler. I can't imagine a loading unit not being able to handle a 72k btu unit - but what is the make & model?

    You definitely have all the major ingredients assembled - and those are very nice rads.
    arngnick and Coal Reaper like this.
  13. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    72K MaryAnne has her coal grates and shaker bar installed (her wood grates are stowed close by)...... but she need a coal baffle........ I may have to fashion one out of firebricks and plugit. wish I could find some better pictures or drawings of the pieces. (I think it looks like paired tables tipped up on their ends,
    I have Sooooo much homework left.... brace that stay, heave ho, one pull at a time. if you slip, grab back on.
    I need a further pump and load with panic dumping explanation from welder dude in ny, (he may have had MaryAnne confused with CalciferusMaximus)

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
  14. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    update and simple heat cypher rehash...
    ... the battery pack for the house will take ___ hours to charge from cold fill w/MaryAnne... 1200 gallons times (180 - 50 degrees F) times 8.34 divided by 72K. Give or take! sooooooooooooo..... 18 hours 5 minutes? really? (probably much longer without the pack super insulated)
    857939_3501376630328_494754287_o.jpg
  15. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    Yep, figures don't lie!
    Code:
    You have: ((1200 gal)(8.34 lb/gal)(btu/(lb degF))((180-50)degF))/(72000 btu/hour)
    You want: hour
              18.07
    Is that a bronze shell and tube HX for DHW? I didn't notice it in the prior photo. I wonder if it would feed by gravity if you mounted it a foot or two above the tanks.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
  16. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    its a steel shell (copper tubes) the only rating I have for it (so far) is max 300F max 300psi. 1 1/2" ports to the shell and 1" ports to the tubes, and a couple other small paired ports. I have 2 of them purchased @ industrial auction... they're monsters! (coolers for big compressors) I like your thinking! my sweetie is going to try and track specs down from Sullair.
  17. ewdudley

    ewdudley Minister of Fire

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    They're designed to dump a huge amount of heat using large temperature differentials, but I would think you're only looking to sip ten or twenty thousand BTU per hour with small temperature differentials, assuming you'd be using it to recharge a hot water heater tank. You'd only need less than a gpm from the pump, something like a Taco 003 bronze or stainless steel. The multiple returns to the tanks in the sketch are to help insure that the return water can find its level.

    If there's a port into the shell that could come in from the top that would be even better.

    Probably need to plan for possibility the gravity flow doesn't work out, in which case would need to add another pump.


    gravityhx_201310272228.png
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
  18. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    Well... I'm not ready for the heat exchangers yet... need help w/ location of inline air separator and compression tanks...
    I've got some conflicting advise pertaining to the proper location of the air separator...
    I've located it (on paper) on the outfeed line of the boiler (hottest water loses most air)
    Yet the compression tanks are supposed to be located at the suction side of the circulator (B & G "pump away" philosophy) I can't do that w/ the LK810 loading unit ,as it can't be mounted on the outfeed of the boiler.
    Here's what I come up with as an alternative... Screenshot from 2013-11-04 18:42:32.png
  19. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    Compression tanks? I assume those are expansion tanks?

    Do they have bladders? If so, you can put those anywhere, as long as they are tied to your system (e.g. can't get isolated by a check valve or the like). They don't need to plumb directly to a scoop. Mine is just T'd in to my zone return line, just upstream from my zone circ - my zone circ is down low at the end of my zones rather than the supply side of them (i.e. I'm not pumping away). Mine is not a bladder tank, it likely should be - I think it has absorbed a bit of water in the year it has been in service.

    My main air scoop ('separator'?) is on my main zone supply header, just before it splits off to all the zone valves. It just has an autovent screwed into the top of it. I also have 2 other autovents scattered around at other high spots.

    So, looking at your diagram, my air separator is where your zone circ is (a high point), my zone circ is down low right before the tank return header, and my expansion tank T's in there just before the circ. And my autofill/backflow stuff enters directly into the top of my boiler via another tapping - and I keep that valved off, only open the valve if my system needs a bit of water. Otherwise, your system is pretty darn close to what mine looks like. BTW, I'd highly recommend a VS pump for your zone pump - like a Grundfoss Alpha.

    All IMO, of course - I'm no pro, and a pro likely would have done mine a bit different than what I did. But mine works for me, quite well (I mighta got lucky with that).

    EDIT: My layout ended up like it did due a lot to where I could fit stuff into my spaces, and how I could most easily tie it all together and still have it work. If I had had a clean page to work from (like planning a new system in a new (uncluttered) space), I might have done some things differently. But I'm happy with how it turned out.

    EDIT AGAIN: One more difference in mine & yours - I only have one header at the bottom of storage, return from zones & flow back to boiler return meet there. So on yours, that would mean the return from zones would enter your pipe between the bottom of storage & 'spirovent dirt trap'.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
  20. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    Maple, no, they are just plain steel tanks. ( came from my local scrap steel yard w/ 5 full port 3/4" ball valves on each one!)
  21. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf Minister of Fire

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    OK for 25 points does anyone remember who Mike Mulligan was? (think kids books)

    No fair using google.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
    aka.bugle likes this.
  22. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    There is no love like a man for his MaryAnne... blessed be the town folk, the little boys and their clever ideas.
  23. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    Sorry, I had to cheat - never heard of Mike or MaryAnne before. Must have led a sheltered childhood or something, or I'm forgetting in my older age - but now that I know, that's a pretty neat story.

    Anyway, on your compression tanks - I'd get them as high as possible. Mine is sitting on the floor, likely breaking a few hydronic rules the way I did it - it works but I am still trying to figure out the best way to improve that some day in the future for my situation. In the background of my head like. I don't think it matters if they're tied into the air separator or not.
  24. arbutus

    arbutus Feeling the Heat

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    Mike loved his MaryAnne.
    We have the book.
  25. aka.bugle

    aka.bugle Member

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    I've got plenty of room above everything... Plan on mounting them, side by side, 8' up, w/ an airtrol in each one, fed thru a tee and a 3/4 line from the separator. Most of my pipe size is 1 1/4", B&G makes a 1 1/4" cast iron inline air separator, but the top fitting is only 1/8" npt (autovent).... the boss is probably big enough to tap to 1"... I tapped it to 3/4" npt and will feed this to the airtrols in the tanks.

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