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mo heat. got one for ya

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by johnnytugs1, Dec 18, 2005.

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  1. johnnytugs1

    johnnytugs1 New Member

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    do you know where the generic spec's come from that ya see on almost all stove brochures ? and if they are good for all stoves? are they put out by the nfpa? would you happen to have the free link to ck out codes?
    thanks ,
    john jackson, n.j.

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  2. Mo Heat

    Mo Heat Mod Emeritus

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    Hi, Johnny. I always wanted to ride in one of those tug boats...

    The ratings are from EPA certification. This explains the source of the ratings and how they are determined (generically).

    http://tinyurl.com/bzgrz

    They are not good for all stoves, only those included in the link above. I looked up Timberline as that is the stove I think you mentioned before. The Timberline is not included in the list as far as I could see, so it is likely not EPA approved as elkimmeg has suggested.

    I'm not expert in this stuff, so I could easily be wrong. If I am, perhaps someone else will chime in and correct me.

    Here are some other links for EPA woodstove information. You could read here for a long time if you wanted to.

    http://www.epa.gov/woodstoves/basic.html

    As far as a free code link, I have this one as a bookmark, but have never tried to use it myself:

    http://tinyurl.com/9q42g

    Good luck, and maybe someone else will add to this.
  3. johnnytugs1

    johnnytugs1 New Member

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    mo,
    where are you located? if you are not far from N.Y. harbor i'm sure it could be arranged! make sure you bring your ear plugs as it gets kinda loud.the generic specs i was refering to were the distances from non/combustible surfaces. thanks for the info and merry christmas to you!
    john ...............jackson, N.J.
  4. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    John drop me an e-mail with your address and I will make a copy of the sections you need and send them to you. In the office tomorrow I will do the copying to be ready
  5. johnnytugs1

    johnnytugs1 New Member

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    jackson, n.j.
  6. Mo Heat

    Mo Heat Mod Emeritus

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    I'm in St. Louis, but might be coming up that way next year about this time. If I do, and the offer is still open, I'll either sneak away or introduce you to Mrs. Mo Heat. Maybe we could even sound your fog horn. I love fog horns. :)

    Good luck with your install.
  7. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I should tape some foghorns for you Mo. We hear a lot of them at this time of year.
  8. johnnytugs1

    johnnytugs1 New Member

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    hi ya mo,
    thanks for the info it really came in handy. elki had given me the freecodes link once before but i couldn't get it to work.finally it worked. whenever your ready to take the ride and your in the area i'll hook you up.
    4th of july is the best time tho, get to see the fireworks and all.

    elki,
    i have good news. although you can't copy/paste or print the codes from the freecodes link you can do screen captures. so thats what i did. then printed it. brought it to the building dept and walked out with the permit. $152.00 later. now the fun begins ........ building wants frame and final. fire wants rough and final as far as inspections go. any words of wisdom on what the best plan of attack is?
    thanks again for all your help and guidence.
    John........Jackson, N.J.

    soon to be a burning maniac. even on the way home i'm seeing available wood that i never saw before : )
  9. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Give us a run down of what your location and setup will be. Are you going to build a reduced clearance enclosure? floor protection I sent you very good guide lines you should get them today or tomorrow
  10. johnnytugs1

    johnnytugs1 New Member

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    elki
    ok, i got your info in the mail, thank you .i moved the furniture from the area where the stove is to go.made a cardboard cutout of stove and put in place.PROBLEM #1.....
    it comes out further than i originally measured the stove is going to be abeam of my window about 25" away they are vinyl..guess i could move it further out but it will look ridicules. any suggestions? i have included some pics. of the area. on the pic where the furniture was removed the cardboard cut out is in place on the floor. elki i will send you a copy of the pics.. i will be making a non combustible wall on both sides of the corner.but i can't cover the window obviously. and i thought the permit was a hassle ......ha. the fun's just begining! well only 1 more shopping day till christmas. has anyone ever come up against a problem like this?
    merry christmas to all and to all .........a good afternoon.
    john..........Jackson,N.J

    Attached Files:

  11. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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  12. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    John go back and do a screen capture of the NFPA Chapter 9 -6.2
    Reduction of appliance Clearances. Read the chart ( f) then the next 5 pages to determine how to go about it
    Cut print out these sections to show your inspector you followed code when he does the inspections

    Basically using cenent board and 1" non combustiable spacers will allow reductions up to 66% or 12"
    Combustiable wall spacers I cut 3/8" copper pipe pieces 1" long Extend your wall enclosure to just above the window sill witch should provide enough protection. Second issue is getting you proper floor protection. BTW one inch air space has to be all the way around at the floor and sides The cement board can be finished with tile or other non combustiable surfaces.

    The top and sides look ugly unfinished so here is a solution. Using an an alumium angle iron I custom bent. Factoring in th 1.5" the cement board and spaces t then another 1/2" tile dept plus one more inch for free air passage comes up to 3" actually I bent the alumium to a u shape where it allowed me to attach it by screwing it to the wall first. The front piece was also 3" hanging down to make it semetrical plus take out the ugly gap out of sight line I marked out the wall area where the cenent board goes then added one inch for the air space I attached the u-shape angle iron first then the cement board and spacers I roughed up the alumium with very course sand paper applied thinset and tiled over it on the top. The front I placed a piece of strapping held in place with short strapping strips, and was able to tile the facing without the tiles falling down. Then tiled the cement board. The finish product allows for the one inch air space which travles up under the overhang to the back and out at the sides and floor level but a real professional look and finish No ugly edges in the sight line.
  13. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, since you are installing a old "generic" stove, you won't be able to get heat shields for it....at least not factory made ones...

    In theory (and I say that because there are no codes or listing covering this), you could make a heat shield for the stove that would be very effective.

    As an example, let's say that the back of the stove was 24" square. I would take a piece of sheet metal about 30" square, and bend the top back out into the room at a 45 degree angle. The bottom would be flush with the stove bottom. The two sides would also slightly bend back toward the front. Then it would be mounted on spacers about 1 1/2" out from the rear of the stove.

    So, it would have a 6" bend at the top, none at the bottom and a 3" bend on the left and right sides.

    In my opinion and experience, this would reduce the clearance to the stove by a decent amount - again, just speculation...how close do you need to be? I would say that 18-24" from the corners of the stove top plate to the wall with this shield would be safe.....

    just sort of talking out my a** here because having a permit you have to satisfy the codes and the inspector in some way and I doubt stove mounted home-made shields are covered in the text!

    By the way, my experience on this come not only from studying existing designs, but when I manufactured cast iron stoves I sent two to the lab because they were never tested with heat shield. We made up some out of sheet metal (similar to what I described, but not as tall on the top) and the stoves passed with flying colors at a 50% reduction.

    Sheet metal mounted 1" off the wall creates a 66% reduction, so we are being quite conservative here.
  14. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    In a sense generic is generic...in another they are not!

    Here is an example - some bigger stoves in the 80's required 42" clearances and also 24" to the pipe. Most inspectors would OK that same stove today with the smaller generic clearances.

    In my opinion, this would virtually NEVER cause a fire in the real world, but it is important to file this in the old brain. That is why there is no subsitute for experience like ELK has....having used and installed many stoves and seen many others. For instance, if I went into one home and saw a tiny antique generic pot belly with a 30" clearance, I would consider that distance very safe (round and small stoves do not radiate direct to a wall), and if I walked into another and saw a giant Steel Plate Stove at 30", I might consider it suspect.

    Remember that stove radiation comes largely off of flat surfaces toward other flat surfaces that are parellel to them! Also, heat rises, so large stove tops are always a place to be careful....
  15. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    As many here wait for me to (blow a gasket) I like inovative approaches. I really like your heat shield suggestions. I would probably pass them if the reduction was no more that 50% Are there any manufacture specs for heat shield reductions. You gogglers please find them and post any here. I sounds like John's inspector is going by the book. He would need some supporting instances or documentations to supply the inspector Or build a NFPA approved enclosure as I oultined. This stove is an older Timberline so generic codes is how he applied for a permit He will probably have to use generic code for enclosures but boy would the shield be a quick and easy solution.
  16. johnnytugs1

    johnnytugs1 New Member

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    wow ........you guys never cease to amaze me ! thanks for the info and i'll let ya know how it goes. i'll throw the heat shield idea at him anyway see what he says. and then back it up with the chapter nine info also i'm gonna print the thread, never have to much ammo. i go back on the 28th so i won't get to finish it till i come home on the 14th of jan. so hope fully i can get the rough ready so they can inspect it while i'm gone. elki, thanks for the in-depth instructions it's greatly appreciated and craig i hope i get to build those shields if for nothing else piece of mind. well fingers are crossed and hoping for the best. elki i was reading the post about your house and all i got to say is "N-I-C-E-E-E". i was running coal up the naragansett , providence river and mount hope bay to brayton pt. do you live near any of those water ways? it's a great piece of heaven. that home must of been tricky not to mention time consuming to plan. well again "mucho gracias" and merry christmas to you!
    John
  17. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    John about 20 miles futher north But I know the Providence river area
  18. johnnytugs1

    johnnytugs1 New Member

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    elki,
    i looked up that code and couldn't find the (f) part. it only went as far as (d) and in chapter 9 there is no 9.6.2.is this the nfpa 211 code? or am i looking in the wrong spot . i was looking on page 211-26 thru 211-27.
    thanks
    john
  19. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    I just realized my is the 2002 code not 2003 so pages and sectioning could be different sorry I will look up Mo one line link and advise you there. But I like Craigs idea of metal side heat shields attached to the stove using 1" non combustiable spacers
  20. johnnytugs1

    johnnytugs1 New Member

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    i like that also. is it ok to drill and tap the stove to install the heat shield or do i need to tack them(weld).also when putting together the base to get the 1 " underneath is that where you used the angle iron and 1" spacers also?if so i would think the 3/8 copper would go thru the board do to the weight of the stove or is it that i just misread it?
    thanks,
    john
  21. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    John e-mail me your phone number I have the NFPA here and can explain what I instructed concerning the wall protection
  22. johnnytugs1

    johnnytugs1 New Member

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    ok, sent it in pm should be recieveing it shortly.
  23. johnnytugs1

    johnnytugs1 New Member

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    dave i hope this helped.
    john.......jackson, n.j.
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