Need advice for choosing an insert

[Daniel]

Steve:

Sounds like you are getting close to making a decision. I'm sure you will get great pleasure from the additional warmth from a pellet or wood stove. If you are looking for quiet ambiance go with wood...if you are looking for heat that you can easily regulate and requires little attention other than preventitive maintenance go with the pellets. And just accept that on any given day you will be stacking wood thinking I should have gone with pellets or you will stare into the pellet fire and think I wonder what those floating flames look like. Regardless you will be warm and save some money after the initial investment. Concerning my glass door the dirty glass is very minimal even with cool smoldering fires. If I have a roaring hot fire burning not only does the glass stay clean, but the firebricks in the stove stay clean and you can watch the black soot burn off of the bricks. The cooling springs on my door handle are not on in this picture. Good night.

 

[Autumnknight]

Just an update on where I am with this whole process. The local Quadrafire dealer came out a week ago and measured my fireplace and gave me a bid on the 3100i. The quote was just a bit over $3200 installed, but this price is without a blower, and is just the basic black model. Unfortunately, as WXMAN indicated in his post, the clearance in front is not enough for the 3100i, and I would have to add some tile to the floor in front of the fireplace to be able to use it. I do intend to replace the flooring in the living room someday, but this is just another added cost and complication.

I could go to a flush insert, such as the 2700i, which is not quite as clean, and has a smaller firebox, as noted earlier. Any thoughts on smaller flush inserts?

I have also been getting quotes on putting vinyl windows in my house. The estimated cost for the entire house is just over $5000, which buys a lot of natural gas. My windows are all structurally sound, wood windows. They are just not energy efficient windows. I think they might make my house a little more comfortable, but I think it would take a long time to make back my investment in just energy savings. I think having a fireplace that I can use and that would produce heat would make for better bang for my buck. Or am I just rationalizing here?

I also looked at the Harman insert, and it seems to be a very nice unit. The unit is around $3200, with another $400 for installation, which puts it just a bit above the 3100i. There are just too many things to think about here.....

Once again, thanks for the advice so far. This is certainly one of the most helpful forums I have been to.

Oh, a question I forgot to ask. Since wood and pellet inserts are sealed, do they emit anything back into the house, such as dust, ash, smoke, etc? I was reading a forum somewhere, and the poster said something about pellet inserts causing a lot of dust in the house. That didn't make much sense to me, unless it came from when a person cleaned the insert.

Steve

 

[Gooserider]

Just an update on where I am with this whole process. The local Quadrafire dealer came out a week ago and measured my fireplace and gave me a bid on the 3100i. The quote was just a bit over $3200 installed, but this price is without a blower, and is just the basic black model. Unfortunately, as WXMAN indicated in his post, the clearance in front is not enough for the 3100i, and I would have to add some tile to the floor in front of the fireplace to be able to use it. I do intend to replace the flooring in the living room someday, but this is just another added cost and complication.

I could go to a flush insert, such as the 2700i, which is not quite as clean, and has a smaller firebox, as noted earlier. Any thoughts on smaller flush inserts?

I have also been getting quotes on putting vinyl windows in my house. The estimated cost for the entire house is just over $5000, which buys a lot of natural gas. My windows are all structurally sound, wood windows. They are just not energy efficient windows. I think they might make my house a little more comfortable, but I think it would take a long time to make back my investment in just energy savings. I think having a fireplace that I can use and that would produce heat would make for better bang for my buck. Or am I just rationalizing here?

I also looked at the Harman insert, and it seems to be a very nice unit. The unit is around $3200, with another $400 for installation, which puts it just a bit above the 3100i. There are just too many things to think about here.....

Once again, thanks for the advice so far. This is certainly one of the most helpful forums I have been to.

Oh, a question I forgot to ask. Since wood and pellet inserts are sealed, do they emit anything back into the house, such as dust, ash, smoke, etc? I was reading a forum somewhere, and the poster said something about pellet inserts causing a lot of dust in the house. That didn't make much sense to me, unless it came from when a person cleaned the insert.

Steve

Adding a hearth extension can be relatively low cost, if you do it yourself - I just added a large extension and it wasn't bad, probably less than $500, including extra tool purchases, for a strip 18" wide by about 14' long. (Actually going smaller doesn't save that much as a lot of the stuff you have to buy comes in fairly large containers that give you more than you need.)

A smaller insert will help you with heat, but potentially not as much as a large one, and will give much shorter burn times than a larger unit. If you want to do 24/7 or close to it heating, you will be much happier with the bigger insert. Going smaller to save on the cost of a hearth extension is probably not a good decision.

I've seen a fair number of posts that suggest the savings from windows are not that great unless the replacements are REALLY bad - you save, but the cost for the windows is so high that it takes forever to pay back. (OTOH "weathersealing" has a minimal cost for very good returns - if you haven't done that, it's worth it...)

Gooserider

 

[Autumnknight]

Thanks for the input. I need to do something with the carpeting in the living room anyway....and was thinking of wood, or some kind of wood look laminate. I recently had my countertops done with ceramic tile and they look great. I have never worked with tile, but I would think that a small section in front of the fireplace would probably be pretty easy. I think I have sufficient height from the hearth to the floor that I would not need to worry about R value, and would just need a non-combustible surface.

The other issue that I didn't mention before is the plate that fits over the fireplace opening. I am sure there is a technical name for it....but I can't find it right now.

The guy who came to give me the bid on the install said that with the way the rocks on fireplace are, that they would either have to custom cut the plate, or I could get a mason in to cut part of the rock away. See the photo, though it may not show very well, but there is a large stone immediately above the opening that juts out a bit....so the concern would be a gap around the insert....

Do you think this is a big deal? It sounds like it would be fairly expensive to custom cut the plate, and I have no idea how much it would cost to trim the rocks. It seems that what I thought was going to be a fairly easy decision has become complicated by a lot of fairly expensive additional concerns.....Or maybe the gap wouldn't be that big of a deal?

Thanks again!

Steve

 

[Hogwildz]

If you make sure a block off plate is installed, then the gap around the surround is no big deal. Hell, with a masonry blade and a saw, you could prolly cut it straight yourself. I didn't notice any photos?

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for the input. I need to do something with the carpeting in the living room anyway....and was thinking of wood, or some kind of wood look laminate. I recently had my countertops done with ceramic tile and they look great. I have never worked with tile, but I would think that a small section in front of the fireplace would probably be pretty easy. I think I have sufficient height from the hearth to the floor that I would not need to worry about R value, and would just need a non-combustible surface.

The other issue that I didn't mention before is the plate that fits over the fireplace opening. I am sure there is a technical name for it....but I can't find it right now.

The guy who came to give me the bid on the install said that with the way the rocks on fireplace are, that they would either have to custom cut the plate, or I could get a mason in to cut part of the rock away. See the photo, though it may not show very well, but there is a large stone immediately above the opening that juts out a bit....so the concern would be a gap around the insert....

Do you think this is a big deal? It sounds like it would be fairly expensive to custom cut the plate, and I have no idea how much it would cost to trim the rocks. It seems that what I thought was going to be a fairly easy decision has become complicated by a lot of fairly expensive additional concerns.....Or maybe the gap wouldn't be that big of a deal?

Thanks again!

Steve

There are two plates that are sort of involved. There is debate about one of them as to exactly what code requires, but there are lots of stories to confirm that for heating it is essential. This is the "blockoff plate" that Hogz was mentioning. It is a plate that goes up inside the flue, generally in the former damper area, and which seals the gap between the liner and the chimney. There are descriptions of how to make one in the wiki, and I would advise letting the installers know that it is a required item.

The other plate is what fills in the gap between the insert body and the edge of the fireplace - this plate is called the "surround", and as long as you have a properly installed blockoff plate it is primarily cosmetic. Some installers like to try to avoid putting in a blockoff plate (it is a PITA) by sealing the joint between the surround and the fireplace opening. This is definitely a lousy way to do the install, it will send a lot of your heat up the chimney.

Doing a proper blockoff plate will allow you a lot more flexibility in handling the surround as that joint is no longer a critical area. I would probably trim the plate to fit around the stone rather than cutting the stone, but you will have to decide which way to go with that in terms of the look you want.

Gooserider

 

[Daniel]

AK:

As Hogwildz mentioned the block off plate is whats essential to keep cold air drafts from coming into the house. The trim package (aka surround is just to give the stove a clean / finished look. Stand alone stoves that are placed into or near existing fireplaces do not have surround packages. My advice is to buy a stove that you like the look of and that meets your fireplace opening requirements. Maybe if you go on Hearth.com or Craigslists and barter or request help to install insert you will find someone that could help you with the install. If you feel confident with the following tools I bet you could do the job yourself:

1. tin snips (cutting flex liner & making block off plate)
2. right angle grinder or Sawzall (cutting out damper...if it needs to be done? & trimming the surround)
3. screwdriver (tightening clamps)
4. caulk gun (applying furnace cement and high temp silicone)
5. razor knife (I installed ceramic insulation on my block off plate cut to size)

Yes...you may hit a snag during the install but as long as you leave a margin for error before making final cuts or grinds you will be able to work it out. I was not sure if I would be able to do the job by myself, but after researching and reading (just like you have been doing) I managed. In the end I am confident that I installed my insert with more care and thoroughness then a dealer may have taking the time ( or had the time) to do. My stove drafts well and my double walled insulated block off plate (two sheets of thin gauge steel with insulation in between) was definately overkill, but I wanted to do the best job possible and I did. The surround kit is easy to cut with the grinder or sawzall use a fine tooth saw blade if you use the sawzall. If you lived closer I would lend a hand, but my final bit of advice is to keep your stove decision and install concerns simply. There is so much info and opinions on this site it is easy to second guess or over research. All the stoves you mentioned are good stoves...what style do you like best? If you have the money but not the time pay to have it installed or do it yourself and I bet you will surprise yourself with a job well done!!