Need help finding the right stove/insert

[lentil]

I've been lurking for a while and have been learning a lot. Great forum!

My house heat has a propane furnace and I want to move to wood heat. We have room to store the wood and plant a woodlot (10 acres) but we're having trouble making things work. We have a zero clearance fireplace with a blower. I would love to have a freestanding stove (alderlea T6 <3) but there just doesn't seem to be a good spot for one in our house. We had someone come in to give us an estimate and they found one spot that seemed ok, but my husband vetoed it b/c he thought it looked weird there (near the fp) and thought that it would make it more difficult to sell the house when we sell. Our house is large (4300 sf) with a very open floor plan and high ceilings. It is fairly new and should be well insulated. I know we can't heat the whole house with one would stove, but at the very least I would like to heat the main living area which is probably about 1000 sf.

Here is what we are looking at:

1) An insert that fits inside our existing fireplace. The blower around the ZC fp makes it harder as I don't know that they can cover it up. The area that they would insert the new stove is about 4-5" above the hearth and if it isn't a flat front, well, it seems like it would look weird as the part that sticks out would just be floating in the air above the hearth. The alterra has a flat front and fits as long as we don't get the blower.... but it doesn't seem like it will heat that room without one.

2) Somehow tearing out the old fireplace and maybe building an alcove so we can have a freestanding stove? We are not handy and I have no idea how to do this or where to start. Do I need a mason? A general contracter? The rock in the room goes to the ceiling, so we would need to tear out part of it, I guess, and then replace it with the same kind of stonework? I think?? Does anyone have any idea how much (ballpark) it would cost to get that area ready for a freestanding wood stove to be installed? I know what the stove + installation would cost once the house is ready for it, but I haven't the foggiest idea how much the conversion would cost.

Oh, the installer said we could put a stove in between the farthest windows (either side) with the chimney running up between two windows. We're not sure it will look good as the existing fp is a focus of the room. Does it look alright to have a stove and a fireplace in the same room? We don't seem to have another good spot for a freestanding stove.

I attached pics which I hope will make this clearer.

 

[Dix]

Hi Lentil ( love it the screen name !) ! Welcome to the forums

Do you have a brand name for your ZC? That'd help for starters. Some brands are more compatible, some have requirements, etc.

A house layout would probably help a lot. There might be another location for a wood stove. That's a big area to try to heat. Would a wood furnace work?

 

[jeff_t]

Agreeing, a wood furnace may be more appropriate.

 

[lentil]

Our fireplace is a Heat&Glow; Energy Master 415 (EM-415). The installer who came seemed to think it was fine to put an insert in it, but that we couldn't remove anything (e.g. refractory panels). I found the manual etc. online, but couldn't fine anything about stove inserts. It would be great if there were something like that available

Floorplan: http://www.johndayhomes.com/oldmadison.htm That is close to our floorplan. We have that model house but we made the family room (shown in pic) bigger and it has 3 windows on each side, not 1 as shown in those plans. The den/guest room is also bigger. It is 20x13 and has two windows on each side, not the one shown. Other than that I think it is the same.

I hadn't considered a wood furnace. Keeping in mind that I'm a wood stove noob, I thought that part of the way that it warmed you was the heat radiating from the fp... so wouldn't you lose that if it was sitting in the garage? Any suggestions for furnaces that I should start looking at?

 

[Dix]

What kind of heating system do you have now?

Do you have a basement, or is the heater/current furnace located some where else?

* note, I'm bidding you time to get your thoughts together and get prepared, 'cause there is going to be more input coming soon ;-) *

 

[lentil]

haha, ok

Houses don't generally have basements in this area and ours is no exception. We have two propane furnaces, one in the garage and one in the attic. We're not using the furnaces at all now (space heaters are cheaper as propane is so expensive) and spending our time in the room listed on those floorplans as the den: it has sane ceilings and a door that shuts so it can be heated fairly easily. We do have one heater in the main area to keep it from getting too cold and damaging the house. That said, when we did use the propane furnace we generally just used the downstairs furnace. The room above the garage was cold but everything else was comfortable.

We have estimates for a heat pump and right now my husband thinks that would be the way to go. It would save a huge amount over propane, but I still want wood... even if it's just as a supplement. Oh, , butthey just did a heat load calculation today and said it was 38,000. That is for the downstairs only, but that is all we actually heat. I have no idea what that means, but maybe it will mean something to someone else ^^

I live in Western Washington and our winters are fairly mild. Coldest month has average highs of 45 and average lows of 34.

 

[begreen]

A freestanding, rear-vented stove with a hearth on the floor of similar or complementary material as the fireplace wall, could work visually. I'm thinking a Jotul F600 or a Quadrafire Isle Royale at the moment. A ceiling fan or two in the room to help with heat pocketing at the ceiling.

Or, perahps replace the Heat&Glo; with a serious EPA fireplace. Perhaps one that can duct heat to another location like the Kozy Z42 or RSF Onyx2 for examples.

 

[lentil]

We already have ceiling fans so that is a help.

freestanding stove on the floor in front: we have a raised hearth so we would have to tear some things out and get some masonry work done... or did you mean extending the raised hearth and having the stove rest on that? Either way it sounds like a smaller, less expensive, project than the alcove idea. Does that sound about right? One catch is that the top of the current fp opening is a little over 4' above the ground so more than the usual amount of fireplace opening would show. Does the old fireplace just stay there?

For replacing the fireplace, I think both my husband and I would be happy with having the old one torn out and replaced but I have no idea how much work that project would involve. I'm guessing we'd have to tear out some of the masonry to get the old fireplace out, yes? How big of a project is that? the floorplan is really open so we won't need it to vent into the ducting. Turning on the furnace fan should move the air around just fine.

I guess for both of those there is masonry involved. I'm in vaguely the same area that you are, BeGreen. Any ideas on who to contact for an estimate for work like this? The wood stove stores I talked to doesn't do this kind of work and didn't have a referral for me. We're in SE king county so maybe we aren't that close to you... but I just don't even know where to start looking for someone to do this job. It may be that it is too expensive, but I would at least like to get an estimate to see if it is an option.

 

[Lighting Up]

All depends on what you want to spend and what you want to heat...that is a beautiful room in the picture. With your windows if I looking at that room right your only option is where the FP is now with all those windows. I agree to move that in the corner would change the look of that room...IMHO. Again, depends what you want to spend you can just add a insert rated for that ZC for around 3K that will heat that room and maybe more or add a stove removing or adding to the hearth (may lose floor space) or rip it all out and spend 7-10k with a stove that can heat more of the house. I would also suggest going to a stove store look at what they have that would work for you I did the first. Good luck, there's no wrong choice only money. You will love the heat they give...
md

 

[begreen]

No modification of the existing hearth. I mean a hearth pad on the floor level that compliments the look of the existing fireplace. Yes, the old fireplace stays there and a liner is installed into its chimney. A removable plate could be fabricated to cover the fireplace opening to make it look a bit more finished.

If replacing the fireplace, the question is how much surgery could be done on the exterior wall side to minimize the interior disturbance. This would take an on-site inspection.

I would estimate the cost of a freestanding stove option to be about $2500-$3000 for the stove, $1500-2000 for the liner and trim plate, and say $500 for the hearth pad. It's getting later in the season so you might find better deals. The fireplace replacement estimate I would expect to fall more in the $7500 to $10,000 range due to the more extensive carpentry and replacement piping involved. Sorry I don't have any dealers to recommend for this. But you could call Sutter Home and Hearth in Seattle for a consultation.

 

[lentil]

@begreen - We have been working with Sutter and I was very pleased with the people I talked to. Very nice and willing to help. They were very helpful, but they don't do masonry work and didn't have anyone to recommend (which is weird). I just searched around and found a company that does masonry and emailed them. It's nicer to have someone you know is good, but they seem like a reputable company. I sent pics and I'm hoping it will work out.

My husband will veto putting the stove on the raised hearth on the grounds of resale, but I think tearing out the ZC out and putting a freestanding stove in might work well for us. Your guess about the cost to tear it out was very helpful. I think we can swing it if it is in that range. We know we will have to spend a pretty big chunk of money to switch away from propane heat no matter what we do. Spending a lot on an insert that won't provide much heat seems like a waste of money, but having a good stove that can heat the house would be worth it.

@lighting up, I wish it were that simple! The only insert we could find that worked would only fit without a fan, so it wouldn't really heat the room We were definitely ready to bite for the standard insert price-tag but it just isn't an option.

 

[begreen]

I agree with your husband. But the stove doesn't need to be on the raised hearth. It can be at the floor level. I think you are misunderstanding my suggestion here. This is leaving the ZC alone and just adding a liner. The hearth pad on the floor for the freestanding stove doesn't even need to be permanent. That way you can remove the stove, hearth pad and restore the current ZC to all it's inefficient grandeur.

The other option I suggested - replacing the ZC unit, will require a tear out. If that is the choice I am suggesting that you explore tearing it out from the outside to minimize the impact on the interior.

 

[lentil]

Yup, I was not understanding what you were suggesting. I thought you were suggesting an install like this one: hearth.com/gall/v/WoodStoves/oslojot6.jpg.html . I'll try to find some pictures of installations on the ground in front so I can see what that looks like. I like the idea of having it be temporary so I can take my precious with me if/when we move

As it happens, we have stonework on the outside of our chimney, not siding, so I don't know that it would be any easier. We would have to tear through the decorative masonry no matter how we approach it... but maybe it's still easier from the outside? All new to me.

 

[lentil]

Thanks for all the ideas. My husband and I talked it over and he is ready to buy a stove. It may not look as good as some set ups, but I think both of us think a freestanding stove will look OK sitting on the raised hearth. Not perfect, but we can take it with us if/when we move so the resale issue is gone. The hearth is is 59" wide and 20" deep so it looks like both the Jotul oslo and the firelight will fit. Are there any other stoves I should be considering? They would need to be wide and shallow like the Jotuls, I think, to fit. I really liked the Alderlea T6, but it's too deep. The Jotul stoves are beautiful and I'm sure I'll be very happy with one.

Anything else I should know before committing? Any special kind of liner I should be using or something like that? Do I need a fan on the stove or is that unnecessary for a freestanding stove?

Any opinions about whether it is better to match the hearthpad to the stonework vs. the floor? I'm thinking stonework would be better so people don't trip on it, but I've never seen it done so I'm not sure.

I managed to score about half a cord of wood from someone's old wood shed that has been aging 6+ years. It looks great and is very dry. I'm ready to start burning I just need my stove

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[begreen]

Yes, you need to focus on rear-venting stoves. The Alderlea T6 is top-venting and not an option. In addition to the Jotuls mentioned, take a look at the Quadrafire Isle Royale and maybe the Hearthstone Bennington.

You will still need to protect the floor in front of the stove, below the raised hearth. Sparks and embers will sometimes surprisingly pop out of the stove when reloading. The protection can be with a simple hearth pad that can be removed in the spring when the season has ended.

 

[lentil]

Rear venting. Got it. The Bennington won't quite fit but the quadrafire does so I will search the forum and find out more about that one along with the Jotul stoves. I like the way all of them look, so I think it's mostly a question of which one will do the best job heating a large space. It would be fun to be able to cook on the stove, too but I'm guessing they all allow that. Thank you for the suggestions!

I'll make sure we get a good hearth pad, too.

 

[lentil]

We just heard back from the installer and he said they can't install it a stove top of our hearth. He said that our air cooled chimney is inadequate for a large stove. Also, we would need clearance behind the stove (which I didn't expect) as the masonry is on top of wood. He also said we didn't have enough side clearance, but unless I read things wrong the Oslo and the Isle Royale both need less than our 59" of space... but most stoves were indeed too wide.

He seemed to think our best bet, if we wanted the stove there, was to tear out the fireplace and build an alcove for the stove. I'm talking to someone about an estimate but it would think such a large project will be very expensive.

Getting a bit discouraged at the prospect of us being able to heat with wood but we'll keep working on it I guess. Just wanted to post an update. Thanks for the advice and if you have any more, I'm all ears.

 

[begreen]

Unfortunately the photo of the fireplace is small and a long view. It's hard to guess at dimensions from that distance. But I still wonder if a stove could go on the floor in front of the hearth on a hearth pad. However, lacking dimensions like hearth depth I can't verify a good fit. Yes, the dealer is correct, a liner would need to be added to make the flue compliant.

As an example, the Jotul F600 needs 19" clearance behind and 13" to each side. But if the stove has a rear heat shield the rear clearance drops to 13". The Isle Royale need 16" from the rear (14" with double-wall pipe) and 22" (18") to the sides.

 

[lentil]

The hearth is 59" wide (well, 60" with 1/2" of wood over the hearth on each side) and 20" deep. The fireplace itself is 36" wide and so the stoves we were looking at would be entirely in front of the fireplace, not the stonework, but I guess that isn't enough?

I was expecting a liner to be necessary but he seemed to be saying that wouldn't work. He said we would have to remove our air cooled chimney and replace it with an insulated 6" chimney. My only guess is that my current chimney isn't big enough to have a liner large enough for a big stove. Could that be it? I thought getting a liner was pretty straight forward so I was surprised.

If a liner is enough, I can ask him about putting it on the floor in front of the hearth. I guess that would put the back of the stove, say, 13-16" in front of the hearth. After that there is 20" of hearth and then something less than 20" to the flue. Is that too long of a horizontal stretch? And are there clearance issues with the chimney and the hearth?


I can attach a close up picture of the hearth if that would help and I also have a link to the manual for our existing fireplace. Thank you for all the help you are giving me, BeGreen. I really appreciate it.

 

[kingquad]

Hearthstone Equinox?

 

[FyreBug]

Sorry, walking in late in this post.

What is the chimney diameter?

It sounds as if a few curve balls are being thrown at you. Nothing the folks here cant help you with. If I may re-iterate a few things. I think the best solution would be to tear out the original ZC and replace it with a high efficiency ZC for the following reasons.

1) you preserve the look and house investment.

2) many of the ones offered on the market can serve as small furnace. They provide heat for the room they are in but also can pump warm air in another area of the house with an optional power vent kit. Some of them come with a thermostat and turns this feature on & off.

3) They are very efficient (some at Washington State approved) and throw a lot of heat. They look very good as well

Here's the downside. To make it practical and preserve your hearth and stone work as is you should see if this can be done by tearing the old one from the outside. Your cost for a high efficiency EPA (Washington State) 2.5 cu ft firebox is about $3K. The bigger the unit the more the cost. You may be able to keep the existing chimney if its a 6" inside diameter. Other wise you cost including installation, masonry work etc will come to be $10K plus. A last word of caution, if its an option you are considering, make sure to know the chimney manufacturer and model since ZC must be certified for that specific chimney model and will narrow down your ZC option if you want to keep your chimney.

 

[begreen]

I don't want to second guess the dealer here. He is front line. But ask about installing 6" Duraliner for the stove. That is 6 5/8" OD which should go down the 8" round air cooled SL stove pipe on the fireplace. If that is ok, then the other dimension I need is how far the side bookshelves project past the face of the fireplace. I need to get a top down view drawn with all dimensions so that I can try out the stoves here.

Fyrebug has given you a good alternative perspective. Though I think you might find the unit cost for the actual fireplace a bit higher, in the $3500-5000 range. If you want to duct the heat from it, add that expense too.

 

[eclecticcottage]

Late to the party here...

But...hopefully I can explain this well enough....

What if...you had someone fill in the existing fireplace "hole" and cover with the same stone you've got going up the wall, and demo the hearth pad then replace with something to spec for the stove. THEN place the stove on the pad and have the chimney/flue go straight up for a given height (no idea on a guess here), then elbow 90 into the stone work and into a liner up the remaining part of the old chimney? This would open back up your stove options, and allow you to find one with closer rear tolerances that would allow for the wood covered stone work (we have paneling behind our stove)....

I'm thinking somewhat like the old kitchen stoves you see block off plates for in older homes...

I'll go try to find a pic to explain what I'm trying to say a bit better.

Edit-here, like this

Less demo work and I think preserving the existing stone would be a plus for resale value, since it ties in with the height of the room. You might be able to keep more of the pipe inside that way too.

 

[FyreBug]

Fyrebug has given you a good alternative perspective. Though I think you might find the unit cost for the actual fireplace a bit higher, in the $3500-5000 range. If you want to duct the heat from it, add that expense too.

Sorry to disagree... Valcourt Lafayette Retail (incl, overlay & faceplate) $3,100. 2.5 Cu. Ft. EPA Washington State. Comes standard with dual blower. Forced air kit is programmable and thermostatically controlled. Will push air up to 50 Ft away $599 retail. http://www.valcourtinc.com/product.aspx?CategoId=20&Id=551

 

[lentil]

Feeling like a noob here.... got so used to the mails saying there was a new message that I didn't come back to check after my last post as I didn't see any mail. Thank you guys very much for the thoughtful advice and I'm sorry I didn't respond. I thought the thread was dead.

BeGreen - I was told we had a 6" air cooled chimney so it just wasn't possible to get a 6" insulated chimney in there. A liner would have been so much easier. I wish it had been possible. The second people we had out here also thought it needed tearing out so I think it probably was necessary, unfortunately.
Fyrebug - I think that it would look very good to install a stove that looks like a fireplace and we have some friends that did just that. It looks wonderful in their house and produces a lot of heat We get long power outages out where we and I was concerned that they wouldn't heat as well without a blower so we thought a freestanding stove would be better in this case.
Eclectic: That's just about what we are going to do still will take a fair amount of demo work


It just seemed like one thing going wrong after another, but after a lot of headache and hassle, things are finally working out. We were ready to give up on the whole thing, but the mason pulled through and found someone for us. Yesterday they both came over to our house and we talked through it and worked out all the details.

Between the two of them, they will be tearing out all the stone veneer under the mantle, tearing out the fireplace, tearing out the chimney, installing a real chimney, putting the stone veneer back on (flat front, like eclectic cottage's), installing a ground level hearth and FINALLY putting in our stove. If all goes as expected, I will be lighting a fire in 2 weeks in my Alderlea T6. I'm very excited about it

We also considered an alcove installation but this was less expensive, worked better in a power outage, would probably give off more heat in general as it isn't trapped in an alcove AND would let me have the stove I really really wanted. The soapstone ones also intrigued me... but we would have had to go with a smaller firebox for one of those, given our clearances, so it's a good thing I am irrationally fond of the Alderlea T6.

Would you guys like me to post pictures when it is done?