NEW BEE from North Florida

[tradergordo]

The old man was also trying to sell me a bigger unit with a total quote of $3092. This would be a Dutchwest NC small #VC2477 for $1,560, which I can order an additional kit to make it mobile home ready.

Whatever you do, do not get a Dutchwest NC. I can all but guarantee you will be disappointed. That particular stove requires very strong draft for good secondary combustion, and in Florida, especially with a short chimney, you won't have strong draft maybe ever.

 

[tradergordo]

With regard to the stove, what is the main difference between a cast iron stove vs a steel stove, what is the advantage of each ?
Why do some stove have brick walls inside the stove ?

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The base floor pad or Hearth as you call it, what would be the prefer material to be use on a mobile home, what is the name of the material and can it be obtained from lowes/home depot ?

You might be interested in visiting the link in my signature for some do-it-yourself info. Cast iron vs. steel is not a big deal, they are similar in performance, many people think cast looks better, it is often more expensive, it can sometimes crack if over-fired. Steel stoves are welded together, the welds can sometimes crack if they are not well made but it isn't a common problem, they are generally less expensive. I think all stoves have some kind of refractory material inside the firebox, the ones that use common fire-brick have an advantage for long term maintenance, these bricks can easily be replaced at low cost. Other brands have proprietary refractory material that is more difficult to replace on the cheap (although you can make your own, see link in my signature for details).

Hearth pads can be made from a variety of materials, but "micore 300" fiberboard is one of the most popular only because it has such a high insulating value. You need to know what stove you are buying before building your hearth pad, as the requirements for the pad are specified in the owner's manual of the stove. You can find the nearest Micore distributor here:
http://www.gypsumsolutions.com/distributor/BrandDistributors.asp?brand=33

You have to sandwich the micore between common cement backer board which you can find at any Lowes or Home Deport. Then you would generally tile the top to make it look nice. The total cost of materials should be around $100.

 

[SVNET]

I read as much of the information you have provided as I could and wow... Impressive, Well Done!

I thought that by reading all these material that would shut me off and but instead, as I read all these information I come up with more questions because my weak background in the subject.

So here we go...

My findings with regard to Alloy vs Steel Metal, both produce about the same heat transfer and durability, except the Alloy could develop cracks if the stove is over heated or not handled correctly.
Steel designs are not as elaborate, steel stoves might be more lame and plain, but they could cost less and provide the same heating services even if not as attractive.

Also, the more I read, I tend to bounce back and forward between installation research vs which stove to get which turns into how does the stove works and learning about stoves and the jargon.


So I guess I need some what of a index or glossary that would explain all the terms used in conversation of this sort or maybe something that explain the basic concept of how a wood stove works, what makes it works and all the parts and processes involved.

What is the basic of a stove, how does it works ? What is the simple process that makes it work and what makes it work even better ? Any links to such discussion ?

From reading and watching some of the Gordo material, here are some of the things that stand out...

1. Pallet vs bark which create more smokes... I will assume bark is just raw wood and pallet are burnable fuel bricks that will light up easily and burn cleaner but cost more to obtain...

2. No coal bed, no damper down, cutting air completely back.

I will assume that like everything else in live, stoves have a mouth and a butt, the mouse is opening in the rear where fresh air full of O2 comes in and the butt is the chimney (flue) where the smoke goes out...
Is the damper the door that closes and opens the rear stove mouth where the clean air comes in ? Having this door open speed up the process of starting up a fire, but increases amount of smoke put out ?
I guess to start the fire, one would open the rear mouth for fresh air and hope to have already some existing hot coals sitting on the bottom of the stove ? That would make it easier ?
I guess you were impressed at the fact that you had no coals on the bottom but you were to able to start a new bark with the rear mouth close and didn't produce much smoke ?

2b. wait for a bed of coals before closing bypass
Is closing the bypass the same as closing the rear back mouth so no fresh air comes in?
Because of bypass feature easier to reload and start without too much smoke going into the house ?
What is the bypass feature ?

2c. then close the bypass to activate the efficient secondary burn.
Secondary burn, I thought you said your stove did not have the CAT technology ?
What is this secondary burn stuff ?

3. Ever burning, light rumble rumble

I am assuming Ever Burning is a feature patent by the brand of stove that you own, what is ever burning feature, what makes it special ? I was able to hear the rumble near the rear mouth, almost like a furnace sound, is that the sound of colder fresh air coming into fire chamber and igniting the fuel.... ?

4. Fluet temperature

Fluet vs Chimney ? I guess Fluet is the black pipe coming straight out of the stove (indoors) and the chimney is the larger pipe attached to the roof ( outdoors ).
What is the relation of the Fluet to the stove, seems like you are able to determine how well the stove is performing by the temperature of the gasses passing the fluet... ?

5. downdraft stoves are more temperamental to outside temps (and pressure)

I am assuming downdraft stoves are a type of technology, what is the completion technology name ? What is the alternative to downdraft ?
Why is downdraft so finicky ?
Is the downdraft the rear moth and the draft of cold air coming it toward the bottom of the stove into the fire chamber ?

6. Checking the gaskets - dollar bill test, tightening the doors, fixing or replacing firebrick, etc

I noticed that rope looking gasket around the door of the stove I saw at the local store. What is the dollar bill test ? If you can slide a dollar bill in between the rope gasket the seal is not good enough ?

I noticed that some stove have firebrick around the inner walls and on the floors, I saw this mostly on the steel wall stoves, not the iron cast. Is there an advantage to having the brick wall reinforcement ?

I know this is a lot... I will continue to read and hopefully a lot of these background information will become second nature as I dive in more or as some of you help me out to speed up the process...

Thanks all...

I have the wife on board with the project so let the shopping begin....

 

[VCBurner]

Stoves have an air intake and an exhaust. Some have primary and secondary intakes. The damper is usually a plate that keeps smoke from exiting directly out into the chimney. Baffles are a structure that divert gasses from going directly into the chimney. These baffles don't block the flow of flue gasses like the damper, but rather redirect the flow of gasses through another path. Often times, this other path is a secondary burn chaimber or catalytic combustor or a combination of both. The flue gasses also contain particles that stick to the chimney and polute the atmosphere. The secondary burn, passes the flue gasses and particles through the fire for a second time creating more heat by reburning them. Catalytic stoves use a catalyist to reburn the gasses and particles before they go up the chimney.

To Fossil and BeGreen: Did I do OK at explainning this?

I'm not an expert. I've learned most of this information through research on the web, most of it on this site.

Look up the links BeGreen suggested. There is a vast array of information there that would take us thousands of posts to cover!

Here's another link with a lot of info:
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/library.htm

 

[begreen]

This started out wanting to stay on budget. If that is still the goal, just stick with a well made, simple steel stove as recommended and ignore the rest. The firebrick lining is used to retain heat in the firebox for cleaner, more efficient burning. Other stoves do it with cast-iron panels that have an insulation between them, and others with high-tech ceramic insulation. Soapstone stoves use the stone itself. The original stove that was shown (old, cracked box stove) has none of the above.

 

[tradergordo]

This started out wanting to stay on budget. If that is still the goal, just stick with a well made, simple steel stove as recommended and ignore the rest. The firebrick lining is used to retain heat in the firebox for cleaner, more efficient burning. Other stoves do it with cast-iron panels that have an insulation between them, and others with high-tech ceramic insulation. Soapstone stoves use the stone itself. The original stove that was shown (old, cracked box stove) has none of the above.

I couldn't agree more with the above. Keep it simple. I read your long list of questions, and many/most of them are specific to a stove that I do not recommend you buy, so in other words, you don't need to worry about most of that stuff. You aren't going to have a by-pass damper, everburning, etc. You should get a simple steel stove with burn tubes on top, they work well, are the least expensive design, and they are easy to operate. The smallest Englander or Drolet would probably be perfect for you.

You mentioned wanting to buy something online. Here is the Drolet:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200307393_200307393
Currently on sale as the Winter season will soon be over. It has great reviews.

Here is the Englander:
http://www.overstockstoves.com/50epacenowos.html

Keep in mind that you get an extra 30% discount off the prices you see there, because of the Tax credit. When you include shipping and factor in the tax credit, both stoves are $550. Hearth pad and flue/chimney will cost you another $500 (approximately) so expect to spend at least $1,000.

Here is the video showing how to use these types of stoves (burn tube on top):
http://www.ec.gc.ca/cleanair-airpur...ood_stove_operation_video-WS8011CD70-1_En.htm

 

[ansehnlich1]

If you truly are going to install a wood stove, it is my opinion that your NUMBER ONE PRIORITY would be the installation of a properly functioning CHIMNEY! THE CHIMNEY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR WOOD STOVE INSTALLATION

Whatever wood stove you may purchase will have minimum requirements for the chimney, including HEIGHT! Please consider this FIRST and FOREMOST!

I don't know if pellet stoves can be installed in mobile homes, but if there is such a thing as a mobile home approved pellet stove you may wish to check that out too as the chimney requirements differ considerably.

 

[begreen]

Agreed, the flue is as important as the stove, maybe even more so. A lot of people try to cut back here, often with bad results that brings them back here complaining about the stove. But I would put safety as the first priority. Do it right and you will sleep well at night.

 

[SVNET]

I have settle for the NC-13 and cheapest I have seen it on the web has been $785.

The only thing I don't like about that stove is that if to be used on a mobile home, you can not attach the legs, you got to use the pedestal.

Now I am debating getting now or waiting until later in the summer.

 

[firefighterjake]

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With regard to the stove, what is the main difference between a cast iron stove vs a steel stove, what is the advantage of each ?
Why do some stove have brick walls inside the stove ?

-----------------------

The base floor pad or Hearth as you call it, what would be the prefer material to be use on a mobile home, what is the name of the material and can it be obtained from lowes/home depot ?

[/quote]

Tradergordo had a great response for you in terms of cast iron vs. steel.

To me the steel vs. cast iron vs. soapstone debate is much like trying to decide whether to buy a Chevy, Cadillac or Rolls Royce . . any of these cars will get you from Point A to Point B . . . the difference is the few extra doo-dads, styling, price tag, etc. . . . in the end they all have an engine, four tires and drive train . . . and stoves are the same . . . they may have a few extras like an ash pan, mitten warmer, cooking top, etc., the styling is entirely subjective (i.e. ask Big Redd what he thinks about soapstone stoves sometime ) and the prices increase as you move from steel to cast iron to soapstone typically.

So to answer your first question . . . the difference between steel and cast iron is slight. Some folks might suggest cast iron retains the heat a bit longer than steel . . . but this may be due more to the fact that the cast iron is denser and there is more of a thermal mass . . . and I would argue any heat retention is minimal when comparing a CI stove against a steel stove. Both types can break . . . both types can be repaired . . . both types may have to have some work done to them over time . . . to me the two main differences with a CI and steel stove is the price (CI typically cost more) and the styling (steel stoves tend to be less fancy.)

Hearth: What you use to build the hearth depends on what you need for an insulating (or R value) protection . . . different materials offer varying levels of R-value. Some modern stoves only require ember-protection from errant sparks or coals coming in contact with combustible materials (i.e. carpeting, wood floor, etc.) while other stoves might specify a number (i.e. 1.3 R value needed). Micore is one material you can use to build a hearth . . . but some folks have problems finding it. Sheets of 1/2 inch Durock (old stuff, not the newer product which is also available in some places) will have a sticker on it saying it is listed and approved for use as floor protection/hearth . . . many folks use this in their hearth . . . you can get this at Home Depot typically. Again, the stove you buy sets the tone so to speak since you may need to have a big, beefy hearth . . . or very little.

 

[firefighterjake]

I have settle for the NC-13 and cheapest I have seen it on the web has been $785.

The only thing I don't like about that stove is that if to be used on a mobile home, you can not attach the legs, you got to use the pedestal.

Now I am debating getting now or waiting until later in the summer.

I think you will be happy with this stove . . . a decent price, a good peformer and customer service that is top notch according to Englander owners.

I think now is the time to buy . . . in Summer folks may start looking at buying a stove for the upcoming Fall . . . normally I would suggest folks start checking out their local Home Depot or Lowes to wait for a possible mark down of the stoves in stock, but since your stores in Florida do not normally carry these stoves you would most likely not find any discounted stoves.

 

[SVNET]

Next is the Chimney.

1. I am settle on a TIMBER RIDGE 50-TNC13 sold on ebay for $650. I might not get the same customer service in the long run, but it offer instant affordability.
I read some of the reviews on ebay and people love the seller and the product so I am tempted to take my chances and order.

2. The Hearth, I went to Lowes and had a chat with the supervisor of the tile department, he assured me the $15 ember boards combined with some ceramic tiles will do the trick for my situation, so for all the material I need, 3 boards and all the ceramic titles I was quoted $180.

3. The chimney, this is the last part to tackle and again, I don't have a clue. Neither the local home depot or lowes carry any chimneys. So I either buy from the local wood stove stores who quote me around $600 for the kit or order online who knows from where?

Any input on the chimney, what to buy and where to get it ?

 

[ansehnlich1]

Check this manual for specifics on installation....I think it's the stove you are looking at.

http://www.englanderstoves.com/manuals/13-NC2004.pdf

There may be a newer manual available, I didn't look that close, but this one gives a 15 foot minimum height for the chimney.

So, I recommend a straight up and out the roof setup for you if you are in a mobile home, this would likely afford the best draft.

Go with the manual and you won't be dissapointed!

 

[SVNET]

Hello,

That is so funny, there must be a lot of variations of the same stove, 13-NC, because the manual you found says it is not to be use in a mobile home, but I found another similar manual that says it is...

I notice that the manual that I found has 13-NC-MH (MH) letters that I think indicates mobile home.

So the ebay model might not work after all, back to square one, buy from a reputable dealer so that I can get the correct version of the 13-NC.

Thanks.

Check this manual for specifics on installation....I think it's the stove you are looking at.

http://www.englanderstoves.com/manuals/13-NC2004.pdf

There may be a newer manual available, I didn't look that close, but this one gives a 15 foot minimum height for the chimney.

So, I recommend a straight up and out the roof setup for you if you are in a mobile home, this would likely afford the best draft.

Go with the manual and you won't be dissapointed!

 

[firefighterjake]

SVNET . . . take what those guys at the big box stores tell you with a grain of salt . . . they may say the stove will have no problem heating X amount of space or all you need for floor protection is XY and Z . . . sometimes they are right . . . sometimes they have no clue.

 

[VCBurner]

I agree with FFJake! I'm a union carpenter. Any tradesman worth a dime is savy to the fact that people who work at HD and Lowe's are for the most part useless. I don't want to stereotype too much, sure there are some people there who may know what they are doing. I just wouldn't trust them with my life, that's all. When figuring out what you'll actually need for your hearth or chimney, always refer to the specific stove's manual and your local codes. Ask a local stove dealer, chimney sweep or installer for their opinion on what you would need. You may find someone who can lend you their local knowledge.

 

[tradergordo]

Yes, the hearth pad calculation can't be done on what some guy at the hardware store told you. He could be right, but you need to verify. Your manual (linked above) should tell you the R value you need (I haven't looked at it). You can then look up the R value of those boards and add them up (google it if you have to). You can't count the tiles at all for R value.