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New to coyotes

Post in 'DIY and General non-hearth advice' started by Astrolopitec, Feb 4, 2010.

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  1. dougstove

    dougstove Member

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    Local hunting and trapping of coyotes does not generally lower their population, since they can increase their reproductive rates more than enough to compensate.
    Their population is limited by food, habitat and higher level predators.
    The northeastern coyotes are significantly larger than the typical western animals, possibly cross-breeding with wolves or dogs, or possibly just size increase in the absence of higher predators.

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  2. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    There is a big misconception in "a coyotes ability to increase reproductive rates more than enough to compensate". Their reproductive rates revolve more around availability of food than over or under population.
    ie If food ( game ,garbage, road kill, farm casualties, etc) is plentiful then yes the females are healthy and will have large litters. If they have killed off or exahsted a food source such as a farm dump or exhausted wild game populations then they will move to a different area with more food , not necessarily have a small litter. They always have the largest litters they possibly can according to health and genetics. There is not an idicative "switch" like existing population levels that make them more or less fertile. If that were the case then the population levels would never have been affected due to the eradication efforts of states and federal government in the late 19th century.

    YES, they do kill just to kill but 95 % of the time it is out of necessity. I've seen it and studied it. For the most part they are scavengers but when predator populations explode and prey populations dwindle they resort to the easiest thing they can find weather it be a cat, small dog or unattended child and/or some of the coyotes move on to an unpopulated area and set up house.

    Here in the northeast they are crossbred with the red wolf of canada and that I believe is the reason for the voraciousness of this predator versus it's western cousin.I'm not convinced they can or will interbreed with a domestic dog just yet.

    On hunts I have watched many times there cunning ability to size up and lure a tracking dog to others in a pack (so that they may kill the dog) or away from a known den or female if they are outnumbered. I have watched them stop and let a tracking dog catch up to within 10 feet before dashing 100 yards ahead only to stop again and wait .
    They are very brazen and have no fear. I have a friend who owns a large dairy farm and at least once a year coyotes get into calf pens and kill . They don't eat or drag the calf off just kill.
    Do gooder policy for the last 20-30 years has been to lobby states to outlaw trapping and regulate hunting. If these policies continue overpopultion will occur . Coyotes will not self castrate or breed less due to over population. As long as there is food there will be coyotes. I belive they are very disease resistant as I have seen well over 500 coyotes in the last 10 years and maybe only 15 have had mange or looked unhealthy. To understand predator/prey when talking about cooper hawks/song birds and cat/mouse is one thing ,a predator the size of a coyote or wolf is another. And yes the wolf will soon be in the North East in the near future.

    Bobbin , you say you have no problem with hunting but I'm well aware of your views on trapping. Pretty much the same outcome isn't it?
  3. gibson

    gibson New Member

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    Interesting thread. For much of the summer we had a lone stray wild canine wandering our suburban "cul-de-sac" type neighborhood. Lots of woods and a river nearby so not surprising. What was alarming to me was that it was around in broad daylight, often. My first instinct was a coyote, although most of my neighbors called it the "fox". It looked like the picture posted earlier in this thread, skinny, maybe 35 pounds, long stringy tail. Didn't act rabid, but how do I know, I obviously don't know a fox from a coyote from a wolf. Always alone, never vicious, but weird, like it had been abandoned. It would lurk and then slowly retreat if you made a racket to scare it away. Unsettling with young kids and at the time, a small black lab puppy. Animal control in our town wouldn't do anything about it. I couldn't even shoot it if I wanted to because of our neighborhood, oh and I don't have any firearms! I live in Lincoln, RI about ten miles from Providence. Anyone with knowledge on such matters care to venture a guess on what type of animal we were dealing with? BTW, haven't see it all winter...
  4. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    May have been a stray dog.
    Fox are most generally less than 20 lbs.
    An average coyote in the NE would weigh 35-40.
    My inlaws live in the suburbs of San Fran and have them come into the back yard in broad daylight from the drainages that crisscross the area.
    They adapt well to any surroundings, especially wherever there is easy food .
    Friend of mine in Rochester ,NY say the city is poluted with them.
  5. billb3

    billb3 Minister of Fire

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    Well, coyotes are back here. (or maybe passsing through)
    Heard them Saturday night at dusk. Dog wanted back in the house , NOW.

    If they are back to use the den that I found out in the swamp, there's not much food for them here.
    At least by the lack of footprints in the snow. And I usually see and hear somehting outside besides squirrels.
  6. firefighterjake

    firefighterjake Minister of Fire

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    Where I live I know most deer hunters consider them a nuisance and some folks actively hunt them. . . . others say they can be problematic with pets . . . but I can't say as though I've had any personal experiences (good or bad) with them.

    My sister in Alaska however had some real issues . . . the coyotes were very brazen and were following her and her dog . . . well more likely following her dog. She said a local hunter was rather surprised at just how brave this pack was as he went out without a dog and they were circling him . . . at least until he dropped a few. That said, I think sometimes you can't really make a comparison between the actions and behavior of some animals in one area against a group thousands of miles away in very different circumstances (i.e. the Alaskan coyotes also have competition with wolves, more snow, etc.)
  7. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    Instinct is instinct no matter what part of the world. They don't have the capacity to think any other way. Survival is first and foremost.
  8. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    I gots lots of them bastage around my place. I just lost a very friendly, outside mouse catcher to them a few days ago. They like to come up and get into a stare down match with my outside dog (they have NEVER come up to him and he is tied with access to a building). But if and when they get close enough...BLAM...BLAM...BLAM. Bastages. I have lost several cats in the past couple of years to them.

    I have noticed that over the last couple of years they have also gotten a little more brazen. Just this past week I had one in the yard that was at my garden area. I shined it with a mega flash light. Went back to the house - got a gun and the bastage was still standing there. BLAM...

    I don't kill for fun, but these are overpopulated predators in my area. I will take them out if given the chance.
  9. dougstove

    dougstove Member

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    Sorry about people's pets, but, indirectly, the over-population of outdoor pets is part of what is feeding the over population of coyotes.
    The outdoor pet cats can accumulate to a much higher than natural level, because they get supplemental feedings to fend off starvation, and then cause serious damage to bird and other wild animal populations.
    The neighbourhood cats routinely kill birds in my hedge, but people would be outraged if I turned my dogs loose on the cats.
    I would welcome some fisher or coyote action to even things out.
    (There are plenty in the woods, but they do not venture into town yet - possibly still too wary of people here).

    Coyote behaviour and size varies regionally and situationally. The little things I once saw on the prairies were not much more than fox-sized. Around here, they are often 20 kg, look even bigger, and could tackle many dogs.
  10. dvellone

    dvellone Feeling the Heat

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    Considering that the coyote is one of the most adaptable animals, and are frequently seen even in urban areas displaying little fear of living in close proximity to humans where there often isn't a very large prey population, the incidence of coyotes attacking unattended children should by your reasoning be considerably higher than it is. How many children were attacked by coyotes this past year compared to how many were abducted by humans or attacked by domesticated dogs?

    The California Dept. of Fish and Game reports that one person is bitten by a coyote each year (bitten, not killed.) California is considered to be prime habitat for coyotes. They report that they have one documented death resulting from a coyote attack.
    3 million children are bitten by domestic dogs (pets) each year
    300 people had been killed by domestic dogs between 1979 and the late 90's

    If you're likening coyotes to murderers, rapists, and molesters, how would you characterize domestic dogs?

    Coyotes are not Disney characters but opportunistic wild animals that anybody should have a healthy respect for. California and Texas share similar statistics on pet losses yet while California reports occasional attacks on humans, in Texas there have been few, if any. Some scientists speculate this may be due to differing attitudes towards coyotes: Texas has more ranching and the protective attitudes that follow, while some Southern Californians are being accused of intentionally feeding coyotes and thus encouraging their associating easy picking with gentle humans.

    I think that there is a middle ground of reason to consider here. While coyotes are far from being the nightmarish killers some make them out to be, they are never the less wild animals that can easily become adapted to living very close to humans. In suburban and urban areas, where they lose their fear of us and where much of the conflict occurs, it's difficult to instill a healthy fear of humans in them - we can't hunt in these areas. I don't know how they can be addressed in these areas aside from stiff penalties for the ignorant individuals that are feeding them. The hunting season for them here in New york runs for 6 months and there is no bag limit, so in areas where you can hunt that is a real liberal season.

    As for myself, I've lived in the Adirondacks all my life and we have many coyotes here. I live right in the woods and miles from the nearest village and I spend a lot of time hunting and fishing. The only times I see coyotes is when I'm driving in my car. I can't speak for others, but coyotes have never approached my two children (7+5) who play out doors most days, I've never lost a hog or a chicken to coyotes, and if they'll take dogs they've yet to attack mine. Am I ignorant to their threat? No, the kids have to play near the house where I can easily see them, and when they go to collect eggs the dog goes with them and they go together. But I also don't let them out during electrical storms, I don't let them play in the woods during real windy days, they can't ever go to the pond without me or their mother, and when we go to the city I have what most would consider a real unreasonable fear of the "coyotes" there. There are threats other than coyotes that are millions of times more likely to present themselves. I don't have any interest in hunting them. If the price of their pelt was high enough I don't know that I might want to go after them. I do know hunting for an extra income sounds pretty inviting. In the past when prices were too high and there were bounties on mountain lions and wolves we ended up losing those predators entirely here in NY. I can say I wouldn't want to see that extreme as far as coyotes go. We share the woods and they're a vital part of making what would otherwise be wooded land "wilderness".
  11. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    1 cat is far from an overpopulation and hardly worth an entire pack to be at my back door on dang near a nightly basis. I have the average 35-40 pound yotes running my area. They get NO love from me. BLAM...

    If I had that many coons, skunks, etc. running around I would be popping them too. Their population level is WAY too high.
  12. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    You answered your own question about attacks on people. You as a parent are protective of your children and limit oportunities for attacks by havin your children inside at prime feeding times(night).
    Also , there is usually more than enough asy prey and food in the outskirts of suburban areas. Dumpsters,trash cans,compost piles,etc. Prey populations are also high due to being pushed back by developement.

    Dogs are nothing more than tamed wild dogs. Take away his food and keep it scared and he will use his instints to survive.

    Part of the reason that bounties were put on animals years ago was due to overpopulation and the desire to settle areas that weren't. Not to totally eradicate them. Back then there weren't any measures taken to limit the number of bounties because they didn't have the ability to monitor populations like they do now with the deer herd nor did they probly want to know how many coyotes and wolves were around.They just wanted them gone.
  13. midwestcoast

    midwestcoast Minister of Fire

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    Remember this one?
    Just to keep perspective here, none of us have coyote problems like the poor beseiged people of Chicago. They can't even grab a Snapple from the Quiznos cooler without checking for coyotes! For the love of god, where will it end? Keep your fridge lights in working order or your next midnight leftover raid may be your last! :ahhh:





    Here's the link if that didn't work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWTttvImgnQ
  14. dvellone

    dvellone Feeling the Heat

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    I'm not sure what question I asked then answered about attacks on humans. I pointed out the extremely rare incidence of attacks and how you're millions of times more likely to be attacked by someone's pet dog than a coyote. I went on to say that I'm not ignorant of their threat, and I likened my level of caution and fear with those that anybody takes with small children: don't play out in an electrical storm, don't go near the water without an adult, and here in the woods where you're more likely to have a limb fall on your head than be struck by lightning - don't play under the trees during high winds. In other words, always be alert to any dangers while also regarding them with the reality of their likelihood - I don't keep my kids locked in the house fearing ravenous coyotes. I let them play outside and I keep my eye on them as anybody would with small children - my wife and I are still working, doing our things. My kids are 5 and 7 years old. Not many parents would let that age of children wander off where they couldn't see them for myriad reasons. I'm much more concerned with them getting lost, or jabbing a stick in the others eye than I am of a coyote attack. And as far as night goes, my kids are sleeping by 8:00 not because the boogy-man or werewolf wakes at dusk, but because they're small children and that's their bedtime. They'll play outside until that time though dark or not. When I was a kid my parents let us run through the woods at night playing chase with flashlights and nobody ever even saw a coyote.
    Fear-mongering is a poor substitute for informative and thoughtful discussion. Coyote-human attacks are very rare, and human fatalities resulting from coyote attacks are extremely rare. They are well-documented and can be easily researched. But, unfortunately the horror of an attack rises above the reality of it's likelihood and the torches get lit and the mob heads out for the "monster".
  15. kartracer

    kartracer Member

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    Coyotes are everwhere here.My neighbor has had many chickens and guineas killed.The last one killed here was the size of a german shephard.Donkeys are good to help guard from coyotes.
  16. dougstove

    dougstove Member

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    I like having dogs, but statistically, they are way more likely than a coyote to injure someone.
    That said, it is nice to have a dog along in the woods; either they drive the coyote or bear away, or the coyote or bear gets lunch and I get away :)
  17. kartracer

    kartracer Member

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    Or take someone you can outrun.
  18. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    I wasn't fear mongering. Where did I state that coyote/human attacks happen frequently.
    Simply stating the fact that when predator populations become unchecked they attack anything that looks/smells like food. When one area becomes overpopulated coyotes move on to find unpopulated areas and the cycle will continue until they have populated everywhere. When this happens , sky's the limit on what size game they will kill .Can you run faster than a deer? Likely wont happen but it could.


    Is this fear mongering or is it just an isolated instance. The parks dept called my hunt club to bring our dogs in and take care of this problem.We did.

    "The Chautauqua County Health Department’s Division of Environmental Health Services is advising the public of safety issues concerning coyotes following a recent attack that killed two domestic dogs.

    The incident occurred on the Fred J. Cusimano Westside Overland Trail in the area between Mayville and Sherman, when two labrador retrievers following their owner, who was cross country skiing, were attacked by a pack of five coyotes. Despite the owner’s efforts to scare the coyotes away, both dogs were killed.

    “We want to take the opportunity of this unfortunate event to inform the public of the following information and precautions to avoid a negative encounter with a coyote,” said Mike Stow of the Environmental Health Services.

    Coyotes can be found throughout New York state and have a difficult time finding food during this time of year. They may be seen more frequently during spring and early summer as they are raising their litters.

    As food is more scarce for coyotes in the wild, it is wise to control other sources of food that may draw a coyote near your house. Keep dog and cat food bowls inside, trash secure and compost bins covered. Also monitor any bird feeders you may have to ensure they are not attracting other wildlife. If others in your neighborhood are attracting coyotes, tell them about the hazards and ask them to take the measures listed above.

    If you ever spot a coyote, do not make any attempts to approach or feed it. They may look cute, friendly or harmless, but they are dangerous wild animals.

    In addition to the initial dangers of an attack, coyotes are also capable of carrying and transmitting rabies. If you are scratched or bitten by a coyote or any other wild animal, pleae contact the Health Department immediately at 753-4481.

    It also helps to protect your pets against rabies by having them properly vaccinated. The Health Department promotes rabies vaccination clinics throughout the year, with the next clinic scheduled to take place at the Dunkirk City Garage, Lucas Avenue, Dunkirk on Tuesday, March 20 from 4:30 p.m.-6:30 p.m. The full schedule can be found on the county website at www.co.chautauqua.ny.us. Click on “Health Department/Rabies Prevention.”

    If you notice a coyote that is acting strangely or causing a nuisance, do not try to take action yourself. Contact the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation at 851-7000.

    The state also has a yearly coyote hunting season to help control their population. The current season is running until March 25 and all coyote takes must be "

    or how about this.
    http://post-journal.com/page/content.detail/id/502545.html

    This is something else that is starting to piss locals off.
    http://www.observertoday.com/page/content.detail/id/534768.html
  19. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    I could go on about all the unreported incidents that happen.
    Local groups for about the last 6 years have taken on average 300 coyotes a year from a 30 mile radius of here which is about the average size of a county. Would you say the population is out of control?
    I'm done here as I will likely not change your mind till you have lived and studied it which I have.
  20. dvellone

    dvellone Feeling the Heat

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    The debate is fine, and I'd guess that we probably agree basically on more than we disagree. I would be among the first to admit that when populations of either predator or prey increase unchecked problems will arise. And the feeding of wild animals which is sensibly illegal in many areas results in many problems. But with all due respect I do have to disagree with the characterizations that compare wild animals with murderers, rapists, and molesters -they are "predators" of a completely different ilk. The language and comparison leads people towards an unreasonable fear of a wild animal. Historically, that fear has often led us towards detrimental wildlife "management" practices. Whether the population growth of coyotes continues and attacks rise to a number that warrants more concern remains to be seen. I may not be as studied as you in the field of wildlife biology, but my understanding is that predator populations rise and fall with those of the prey that they feed on.

    I can't comment about the population of coyotes being out of control in your neck of the woods, but around here they are plentiful and so are deer, rabbits, and grouse.
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
  21. raven

    raven New Member

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    ........lol this is an interesting post.I have to wonder about Lees coyote population, there must be a dam good boom in some other population to support it. I have a dam good population of coyotes in my area and enjoy it.I do have one groan about em though, i also have a big population of cats gone wild, dont get me wrong i like cats and have my own but cats are killin machines. i keep waiting for a few of them to be thinned by the coyotes .... hasent happened yet. so i hope they get off there azzz and start takin a few soon. LEE you sound like a guy who is really into the wild life around you. You hunt and trap coyotes, I have to think that without those coyotes your hunting and trapping would be a little less. They are wild and they do have a place in that wild life that surrounds us. It has always been easy to paint the predator as a murdering monster that needs to go . sorry to say it but .... its bull chit always has been and always will be........lol to the original poster thanks i have enjoyed reading this one
  22. raven

    raven New Member

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    by the way just wanted to say that the talk of hawks in my first response in this thread had to do with the mind set some people have about predators ingeneraLEE
  23. Adios Pantalones

    Adios Pantalones Minister of Fire

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    People worry so much about them, but look at how many people are attacked by them vs. dogs attacking people. Millions of bites a year by dogs- over a hundred deaths. Where's the real threat?

    Eastern coyotes are about 10# heavier on average than western ones
  24. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    Just to show that I am fair - if we had a pack of wild dogs running around - I would shoot them too. BLAM..
  25. Adios Pantalones

    Adios Pantalones Minister of Fire

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    LOL Jags-I dunno- I have a thing about outside cats. Incredible predators- incredibly destructive. People love to say they're part of the natural order and all- well, there's always one up the food chain :)

    I feel for the ferals in my neighborhood- always seeing kittens out and getting hit by cars etc. Surpirised bthat they survive the winter
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