Newbie Chimney Pipe Question

[JV_Thimble]

Guessing I'm a bit too verbose, so I'll try a shorter post. :blank:

If you need to extend some Class A pipe and don't know the brand, any easy way to ID it? Or, doesn't matter, you can connect any brand to another?

And yes, I can see the creosote in the photo. It was actually just swept, and the pipe/wall penetration I'm working on now was the identified problem.

Thanks,

John

 

[JV_Thimble]

Hmmm. Looks like you can't mix types -

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/9541/

Now I've just got to figure out what kind I have...

 

[BrotherBart]

Looking at the bricks that appears to be an eight inch ID pipe?

 

[JV_Thimble]

Yep, 8" ID and 10" OD.

I'm guessing I either identify the brand, or remove what's there so I can start over with all the same thing.

Thanks,

John

 

[BrotherBart]

Somebody will jump in here and jump all over me for this, but if your stove requires a six inch pipe why not treat that pipe in the wall like a thimble and just run a six inch pipe through it?

 

[pen]

Somebody will jump in here and jump all over me for this, but if your stove requires a six inch pipe why not treat that pipe in the wall like a thimble and just run a six inch pipe through it?

You beat me to it.

pen

 

[JV_Thimble]

Have an old Vermont Casting Vigilant (says 1977 on the cast iron inside the firebox in large characters). Outlet size is 8". Unless maybe that's just an adapter I'm looking at, and not the required size for the stove itself?

 

[pen]

hmm. Never mind then. Sounds then like your connection to that pipe was simply not snug enough and air was leaking before? Why not a regular 90 degree bend and then use furnace cement to seal it to that thimble?

pen

 

[JV_Thimble]

hmm. Never mind then. Sounds then like your connection to that pipe was simply not snug enough and air was leaking before? Why not a regular 90 degree bend and then use furnace cement to seal it to that thimble?

pen

Old connection was single wall pipe just jammed into the end. Sweep said it wasn't safe, given proximity to drywall and framing. Often puffed smoke anyway, should've been a clue there...

As far as the 90 degree bend, not sure how that would work. Need direct horizontal connection from the stove to the thimble.

 

[BrotherBart]

Use a eight inch slip connector pipe into the piece in the wall? Works with single wall chimneys.

 

[BrotherBart]

hmm. Never mind then. Sounds then like your connection to that pipe was simply not snug enough and air was leaking before? Why not a regular 90 degree bend and then use furnace cement to seal it to that thimble?

pen

Old connection was single wall pipe just jammed into the end. Sweep said it wasn't safe, given proximity to drywall and framing. Often puffed smoke anyway, should've been a clue there...

As far as the 90 degree bend, not sure how that would work. Need direct horizontal connection from the stove to the thimble.

If that is the case then nothing is going to be safe. Just matching up the pipe is still gonna have the same clearance issue to the framing member in the wall around the pipe that is in there.

It is sledge hammer time.

 

[JV_Thimble]

OK, I think that's something like this.

http://www.northlineexpress.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=5IM-BM0044

Can I then connect another section of Class A on to the end of what I have, and have the whole mess contained in a thimble for extra safety?

For me the ideal situation is to have Class A extend 4-6" into the room, and then use double wall pipe from there to the stove. That way, no need to take off the wood mantle. Combustibles clearances would suddenly be in spec.

 

[JV_Thimble]

hmm. Never mind then. Sounds then like your connection to that pipe was simply not snug enough and air was leaking before? Why not a regular 90 degree bend and then use furnace cement to seal it to that thimble?

pen

Old connection was single wall pipe just jammed into the end. Sweep said it wasn't safe, given proximity to drywall and framing. Often puffed smoke anyway, should've been a clue there...

As far as the 90 degree bend, not sure how that would work. Need direct horizontal connection from the stove to the thimble.

If that is the case then nothing is going to be safe. Just matching up the pipe is still gonna have the same clearance issue to the framing member in the wall around the pipe that is in there.

It is sledge hammer time.

Oh, I don't think it's that bad. The smoke was from a joint that's not relevant anymore (single wall jammed into the Class A). And I've got at least 4" to combustibles inside the wall. I do need to remove a few more bricks (6, I'd say) to enable installing a proper thimble around the 8" pipe I have. Then, extend the Class A, connect to the stove, and replace a few bricks. Voila, or so I think. :cheese:

 

[pen]

sorry, I saw the stove pipe sitting vertical before the thimble and thought that was from the stove. I didn't look far enough right to see the heat machine itself.

If you are looking for it's mate to make a perfect connection I'd say start going to each stove shop in your proximity and take pics to compare to.

pen

 

[JV_Thimble]

sorry, I saw the stove pipe sitting vertical before the thimble and thought that was from the stove. I didn't look far enough right to see the heat machine itself.

If you are looking for it's mate to make a perfect connection I'd say start going to each stove shop in your proximity and take pics to compare to.

pen

Thanks, Pen

That'll probably be what I've got to do next - unless somebody on this forum sees my pic and says - aha!

Then I can start a stovepipe photos ID post.

 

[JV_Thimble]

Of course, I'm also open to other practical ways that this might be made safe. A halfway decent connection, slip connected and cemented together, inside a thimble...

 

[pen]

what was the exact diagnosed problem?

Was it that air was leaking next to that pipe you had through the SS?

I'm wondering if your problem was that the pipe going through that stainless was shoved too far in and beyond the end of the SS too close to the back of the liner thereby reducing draft and making a spot for creosote? Longshot? I dunno, but w/ no stop seen in that ss piece, it's very easy to let that single wall pipe go in there too far and block part of the chimney. If that is the case, then it'd be easy enough to make that piece shorter.

pen

 

[BrotherBart]

OK. I am lost. If a pipe inside the current pipe was not safe then how is mating up a pipe to it gonna make it any more safe? If the issue is the clearance to the existing piece of pipe in there to framing members, it will always be same issue.

Excuse me if I am missing something. I always do.

 

[JV_Thimble]

what was the exact diagnosed problem?

Was it that air was leaking next to that pipe you had through the SS?

I'm wondering if your problem was that the pipe going through that stainless was shoved too far in and beyond the end of the SS too close to the back of the liner thereby reducing draft and making a spot for creosote? Longshot? I dunno, but w/ no stop seen in that ss piece, it's very easy to let that single wall pipe go in there too far and block part of the chimney. If that is the case, then it'd be easy enough to make that piece shorter.

pen

Don't think that's it, pen. Pipe was pretty well seated in there for years, but not jammed in beyond sensibility.

But since you asked about the diagnosis...

Ok, this will get into a bit of a rant. Not trying to bash on sweeps, but I've seen a couple of sweeps in my area do this.

To me, the sweep should clean the chimney and fill out the condition report. If the chimney is fine, had major (or minor) problems, etc. If there's a quote for more work to be done, that's fine. But that's not a condition, it's a quote for more work. I especially dislike not recording the condition, and simply using the condition report as a quotation form. Personally, part of the reason I pay a sweep is to have something on file that says I had my chimney cleaned every year. Mostly end rant.

In this case, while the sweep was cleaning it, he started talking about how a liner would be a good idea to help reduce creosote buildup. As part of the cleaning, we moved the stove out from the wall. Normally, we (whoever does the sweeping and I) disconnect the pipe at the woodstove. This time, it came out of the wall. He then verbally told me it was unsafe because of the close clearance to combustibles inside the wall. Then he told me that to fix everything (new thimble, break out my fully functional tile lining, install new SS liner) would be just this side of $6,000. I told him I had no problem with doing a liner eventually, but all I wanted to do at that moment was the thimble. He then told me he didn't have time for small jobs like that during his busy season, as it would take too much time - not worth it. And now I've got a condition report that says unsatisfactory (arrow drawn through all the check boxes) with a quote for $6,000 in the comments. Ugh. And real end rant.

So, at this point, I figure I either determine what parts I need and fix it (along with an inspection or permit for the file), or wait a bit until the local guys are slowing down a bit. And then get someone who'll work with me to solve the first problem (thimble).

 

[pen]

The coffee in my mouth would have been all over this guys shirt as I scoffed at 6k for a liner and thimble replacement!

I just lined my chimney myself for 415 bux and made a header and bricked my unsafe thimble for about 125.

Unless that guy charges 600 bux an hour, that's nuts.

Is that amount of creosote more than usual for you? Have you used this sweep before? Did he give you any suggestions on burning habits?

Does your insurance say you have to have this report yearly? If not, then you are fine w/out it so long as they have knowledge of your wood burning device. They can't hold you accountable for not having that piece of paper unless they made an exclusion in your policy. IE if you fell asleep drunk and the Marlboro in your mouth caught your house on fire you are covered unless there is an exact exclusion for that circumstance.

pen

 

[JV_Thimble]

OK. I am lost. If a pipe inside the current pipe was not safe then how is mating up a pipe to it gonna make it any more safe? If the issue is the clearance to the existing piece of pipe in there to framing members, it will always be same issue.

Excuse me if I am missing something. I always do.

Well, we could easily both be missing something. I know a lot about my stovepipe and very little about stovepipes in general. You know a lot about stovepipes in general, and little about mine.

I think the framing issue problem comes not from the Class A, but from the single wall pipe that was jammed into it. Clearance allowances to combustibles changed right at that joint.

The way I see it now is that I really should have Class A from my tile liner all the way into the room. Not sure if I really need a true thimble besides, but that's just a sidebar.

What I actually have is some Class A that's very nicely seated in the liner (I've reached all the way in and felt the seam of mortar and, yes, creosote between the clay liner and the Class A). As the Class A is an 18" section and my wall's ~22" thick, my problem starts at the female end of the Class A. What I want to do now is to hook up to the end of the Class A and eliminate two potential combustibles problems:

1. Inside the wall I'm about 4-5" from drywall and studs.
2. Outside the wall, there's some wood trim over the mantle.

I figure that by having Class A extend about 4" into the room, I will have solved both problems. By going from Class A to double wall pipe, I'm now 6" from my wood trim with a pipe for which that's safe to do.

Then I'm home free, right? :smirk:

 

[pen]

OK. I am lost. If a pipe inside the current pipe was not safe then how is mating up a pipe to it gonna make it any more safe? If the issue is the clearance to the existing piece of pipe in there to framing members, it will always be same issue.

Excuse me if I am missing something. I always do.

Well, we could easily both be missing something. I know a lot about my stovepipe and very little about stovepipes in general. You know a lot about stovepipes in general, and little about mine.

I think the framing issue problem comes not from the Class A, but from the single wall pipe that was jammed into it. Clearance allowances to combustibles changed right at that joint.

The way I see it now is that I really should have Class A from my tile liner all the way into the room. Not sure if I really need a true thimble besides, but that's just a sidebar.

What I actually have is some Class A that's very nicely seated in the liner (I've reached all the way in and felt the seam of mortar and, yes, creosote between the clay liner and the Class A). As the Class A is an 18" section and my wall's ~22" thick, my problem starts at the female end of the Class A. What I want to do now is to hook up to the end of the Class A and eliminate two potential combustibles problems:

1. Inside the wall I'm about 4-5" from drywall and studs.
2. Outside the wall, there's some wood trim over the mantle.

I figure that by having Class A extend about 4" into the room, I will have solved both problems. By going from Class A to double wall pipe, I'm now 6" from my wood trim with a pipe for which that's safe to do.

Then I'm home free, right? :smirk:

I See Said the Blind Man! All this was about your wood trim and mantle and not about the creosote???? I was worried about the creosote not the trim! Since it's the trim you are concerned w/, then yes you are correct. if that class A sticks out a few inches you are good in that regard.

It won't fix the creosote problem however.

I love it when a plan comes together.

pen

 

[JV_Thimble]

The coffee in my mouth would have been all over this guys shirt as I scoffed at 6k for a liner and thimble replacement!

I just lined my chimney myself for 415 bux and made a header and bricked my unsafe thimble for about 125.

Unless that guy charges 600 bux an hour, that's nuts.

Is that amount of creosote more than usual for you? Have you used this sweep before? Did he give you any suggestions on burning habits?

Does your insurance say you have to have this report yearly? If not, then you are fine w/out it so long as they have knowledge of your wood burning device. They can't hold you accountable for not having that piece of paper unless they made an exclusion in your policy. IE if you fell asleep drunk and the Marlboro in your mouth caught your house on fire you are covered unless there is an exact exclusion for that circumstance.

pen

I hear what you're saying. The funny thing is this guy prides himself on being $20 cheaper per sweep than anyone else in the area. So, I don't think he's making money on that. :lol:

That is a normal amount of creosote for me (in one year), and that's something I clearly need to work on. This was my first time with this sweep. Had used another company for several years, but they left a mess last year (dumped creosote out in my yard and the ditch across the street). So I thought it a good idea to try someone else.

He asked how much wood I went through last year in that stove (about 4 face cords), and recommended either more frequent sweeping or a liner. He said that the liner would improve my draft, and that I'd use 1/2 the wood after that. Note that I did the math, and it still doesn't pay off in my lifetime (if he does the work).

I hear you on the insurance thing, and they don't require any paperwork. But I do know my chimney needs a good cleaning every year.

Oh, and I do have a non-smoker's discount. So the Marlboro thing might be a problem...

 

[pen]

Outstanding in all regards. 1. for having the chimney swept and 2 for not smoking. (although I do miss it dearly)

My recommendations from someone not being paid would be to be more concerned about the safety of the chimney and less about that bit of wood trim that is technically too close unless you installed that w/out your insurance company's knowledge. There is Zero evidence of overheating on that so the main concern would be from the chimney having a fire from built up creosote. As such, I'd suggest buying more wood in advance so you can make sure it is dry yourself (at least one year split and stacked). If you do that already then you are burning too cool or you just plain need a liner as your chimney won't warm up for you.

But at the end of the day, you could just find a 10 to 8 in adapter possibly and stick over your 8 in pipe to give you a sort of 1 inch air gap that should help reduce the immediate heat on your wood trim.

However, no matter what, there is a better deal to be had than 6k for what problems you have.

as a side bar, I still could use a smoke.

pen