Oil Indirect DHW - Cost Analysis Help

[iceguy4]

I don't know why you can't graft on an electric water heater. Here is a pic of what I did. Of course, things may have to be moved with my "gasser" plans.

edit: I've since wrapped it in fiberglass with a shiny bubble plastic cover. Maybe not super in the looks department.

Nice I see your "field controls " vent damper on your Oil boiler ... Summertime is the best time for an electric HW heat pump heater . During the winter I heat my HW with a zoned HW maker fed by my pellet boiler...summer time , I flip some ball valves and get hot water free....from my basement DE humidifier!!(heat pump hot water heater) My 30 gallon hot water maker as well as my 60 gallon Hot water heater(see signature) ...I have never runout of hot water....I have two showers with 5 heads(body/ rainmakers/shower heads ect)

To the OP get a heat pump Hot water heater and don't look back

 

[velvetfoot]

You're in NY, so you got a HPWH even without a rebate?

 

[iceguy4]

You're in NY, so you got a HPWH even without a rebate?

spent close to $9000 on my pellet boiler and didn't look for a rebate....prolly should have....

 

[moey]

You're in NY, so you got a HPWH even without a rebate?

You can buy the GE geospring for $900 at Lowes on a regular basis. It will go on sale for $999 every other month and then a 10% off coupon.

 

[velvetfoot]

You can buy the GE geospring for $900 at Lowes on a regular basis. It will go on sale for $999 every other month and then a 10% off coupon.

I might check it out at some point. Working on planning gasifer in basement.

 

[Ashful]

I had an energy audit today and they also recommended ditching the oil DHW and moving to on-demand propane or HPWH.

So, let's assume indirect oil with storage is roughly 1 gal. oil/day, for the average family = $3.65/day = $1330/year. I'd be interested in seeing some cost data on a HPWH vs. on-demand propane. The one site I did quickly check has numbers so far off for oil (factor of 2x or worse), that I do not put faith in any of their numbers.

http://www.aceee.org/consumer/water-heating

edit: I should state that I'm wondering if I'd do well to install a HPWH, either an integral unit or as an add-on to my current tank (if possible). Operation would be oil-fired boiler during heating season, and HPWH during summer. It would be nice to have something that cools and dehumidifies the basement boiler room in the summer, rather than running the boiler (and dehumidifier) on 80F - 100F days all summer.

 

[Fred61]

If you need to run a dehumidifier then your hot water is free. We installed a Geyser last spring for summer DHW but now we're not sure which was the biggest benefit, hot water or dryer and cooler basement. I also forced some of the cooler, dryer air upstairs to the living space and was able to reduce running time on my mini splits.

 

[moey]

So, let's assume indirect oil with storage is roughly 1 gal. oil/day, for the average family = $3.65/day = $1330/year. I'd be interested in seeing some cost data on a HPWH vs. on-demand propane. The one site I did quickly check has numbers so far off for oil (factor of 2x or worse), that I do not put faith in any of their numbers.

http://www.aceee.org/consumer/water-heating

edit: I should state that I'm wondering if I'd do well to install a HPWH, either an integral unit or as an add-on to my current tank (if possible). Operation would be oil-fired boiler during heating season, and HPWH during summer. It would be nice to have something that cools and dehumidifies the basement boiler room in the summer, rather than running the boiler (and dehumidifier) on 80F - 100F days all summer.

If it were me Id just install a electric tank or HPWH and be done with oil. HPWH can be run in straight electric mode.

Something to consider if you use a on-demand propane system is the price youll pay if your not consuming large quantities per year. Making hot water doesn't use much propane in a year.

 

[STIHLY DAN]

On demand is a little cheaper, but costs almost 3 times more. Roi over the hpwh would be like 100 yrs.

 

[bryankloos]

Done Deal... I'm sold on the HPWH. I cant turn down a sub year ROI, and a projected savings of 12K over the 10 year life of the unit. Especially with a $400 rebate.

Now, would it make sense to save the old indirect to use as a 80 gallon preheater for the HPWH once I install the gasification boiler in a couple years?

 

[STIHLY DAN]

Yes if its a quality one.

 

[velvetfoot]

If your indirect is 80 gallons, could you use an add-on heat pump unit, and then heat it with wood boiler in the winter?

 

[maple1]

Sure can.

 

[Ashful]

If your indirect is 80 gallons, could you use an add-on heat pump unit, and then heat it with wood boiler in the winter?

This is what I'm thinking , but oil/hpwh, seasonally.

 

[velvetfoot]

Are you saying heat up an integrated hpwh with wood fired water in winter? He already has 80 gallon indirect (which, if my 30 gallon jobbie is boo coo bucks, I can't imagine what an 80 gallon must run).

 

[Fred61]

If your indirect is 80 gallons, could you use an add-on heat pump unit, and then heat it with wood boiler in the winter?

I hooked my Geyser up to my super store but left it connected to the oil boiler since my winter supply of DHW (when wood boiler is running) is produced from 200 feet of 3/4 inch copper in my unpressurized storage and is used directly from the output of the storage tank. Through a tempering valve I might add. Didn't want to get scolded by the safety conscious
So I have three ways of making hot water. If my wood boiler goes down and storage temperature goes below a certain preset level my oil boiler kicks in. I don't mind as much making DHW with an oil boiler that's already hot but I cringe when I'm making hot water in the summer with a cols start boiler. Hence the Geyser.
So basically my super store is cold all winter except for the occasional oil burner exercise session.

 

[mustash29]

I might check it out at some point. Working on planning gasifer in basement.

My local Lowes has the GE GeoSpring for 599 right now. The CT and Fed rebates have dried up, but 599 is a killer price.

 

[velvetfoot]

I find it f***ed up that it is 599 in CT, 1199 in MA, and 699 here in NY. Of course, there are 750 in rebates in MA but it has to be installed by a contractor.

 

[bryankloos]

Will I need 80 gal for a family of 4 with occasional guests? I currently have a 80 gal but wouldn't mind the decreased costs of the 60 gal HPWH?

 

[bryankloos]

Scratch that... I have a crown MS-40 currently, so I should be good to go with the 60 gallon.
Where is the GE 599? I see it at 1199 for the GE 50 gallon???

 

[velvetfoot]

You have to put it in your cart.

 

[bryankloos]

Ahh, yes. $599 in the cart. Wow.
What do you guys know about the GE versus the Whirlpool unit?
Would I notice any difference between the old 40 gal indirect compared to a new 50 gal HPWH with respect to hot water supply? I'm assuming I will have more hot water but would love some reassurance.

At $599 with a $400 POCO Rebate I'm finding this hard to pass up. Can someone give me a reality check or should I just throw down the funds and get this at $599 today?
Bryan

 

[mustash29]

Sears carries the 50 gal GE and the 60 & 80 gal Kenmore / Whirlpool units. Their web site seems to have a few more specs to compare.

GE - Lighter weight, assembled in KY, USA but probably still contains lots of Chineese parts, has a top mount air filter, has a replaceable annode rod, copper electric element.

Ken / WP - Heavier weight, made in China, has side mount air filter, long life electric annode rod, stainless electric element.

Your Crown MS-40 will have a faster recovery rate, because the high BTU capability of the boiler heating it. In hybrid mode, the GE will kick in the electric back up element if needed during higher water demands. In HP only mode, it's recovery rate is slower, but that's where the energy savings come from.

For your application, you could shut down the oil in the non-heating season, keep the water supply feeding the Crown, install the GE downstream of the Crown. By either shutting off the oil boiler or installing a kill switch for the Crown's acquastat wiring, you could easily operate the Crown, the GE or both in series. That's a lot of system flexibility.

Where are you getting the POCO rebate info from? The Fed tax credit dried up as of Dec 31, 2013. The unit had to be purchased & installed before then. The CL&P rebate was only good for "if replacing an existing electric HWH or building a new all electric house". The CL&P rebate also required a purchase & install date before Dec 31, 2013 but you had untill Jan 31, 2014 to fill the rebate form.

 

[bryankloos]

The rebate is from energize CT. I guess the guys who conducted my energy audit hooked me up as they signed all the rebate forms for me. The purchase period is jan 1 through dec 31, 2014. While technically the rebate is for replacement of an electric unto there is no required documentation for the rebate other than the receipt and a copy of my utility bill. No contractor signature required for the water heaters.

The energy audit was through my fuel oil provider as a perk. They replaced light bulbs, sealed hvac ducts, weather strip applications etc. Not bad.

I'm leaning towards the GE given the price difference. I don't see much reason to spend the extra 1k on the whirlpool???

 

[avc8130]

I don't see the GE for $599 in my cart at Lowes. Are you sure Lowes isn't claiming the rights to the rebates in that price?

ac