Old vs Modern wood stove

[wkpoor]

Let me ask this question, would I be smarter to add insulation to my basement walls before replacing my stove?

When it comes to heating with wood a friend of mine has a saying "why is everyone always trying to find a better way to heat the outdoors". Go for tightening up the house first.

 

[jreed]

Let me ask this question, would I be smarter to add insulation to my basement walls before replacing my stove?

When it comes to heating with wood a friend of mine has a saying "why is everyone always trying to find a better way to heat the outdoors". Go for tightening up the house first.

Good point....thanks!

 

[oldspark]

"It is like comparing a 69 Camaro with a 390 to a new one with a v6" Putting a 390 in a 69 Camaro would be like putting a turd in a punch bowl. :cheese:

 

[oldspark]

Comparing old Nashua to my new Summit is not fair in some ways, the summit gives off much "softer" heat then the nashua but when it is 500 or so stove top it is giving off a lot of heat. So far it has done a good job but has not been cold yet, it gives off heat for ever compared to the old stove with the same amount of wood. If the summit wont heat the house this winter you guys will be the first to know! :bug:

 

[Battenkiller]

Let me ask this question, would I be smarter to add insulation to my basement walls before replacing my stove?

Yes, without a doubt. Been there, doing it both ways. Night and day difference. I went from, "No f***ing way is this gonna work" to "I think I'll call this thing The Little Stove That Could". Insulate first, then look at stoves after that.

 

[begreen]

My basement is unfinished and uninsulated.

That's the info I was waiting for. Insulate the basement before doing anything else. This is going to give you the best bang for the buck. It will reduce wood consumption significantly and will also greatly reduce duct heat loss when the furnace is running. This is where I would spend first. It doesn't have to cost a lot. And the actual job goes pretty quickly once the clutter is out of the way. Be sure to seal the sill plate well and continue the insulation up over it. The net result will be less wood used, less furnace fuel used and warmer floors.

PS: The only thing the Englander 30 NC and the Napoleon 1400 have in common is that they burn wood and have the door handle on the same side. The 30NC is a much bigger beast with a different secondary manifold system. The Englander 13NC is closer in size to the Nap 1400.

 

[Battenkiller]

So back to your question "where is all the waste?" - the answer is simply "up the flue." Basically my understanding is that older stove designs required more air to get to a clean burn. Thus more air in = more air up the flue. That is heat headed right out of the house.

Sorry, no way in hell am I sending an extra three cord of wood up my chimney as lost heat. I'm not using an old Franklin-type stove, my stove is as air-tight in design as any of the newer stoves, even more so. My flue temps end up being the same as most folks here report - about 300ºF when cruising in downdraft mode (which is where my stove sits 90% of the time). My stove temps (600-650º) at those same flue temps are much higher than these same people report (450-550º), so my stove is putting out a load of heat by comparison with newer radiant designs. Then my flue temps drop as the coaling stage begins, just like everybody else. It's not unusual at all for me to find the flue temps at 225º and the stove still at 500-550º with a big bed of orange-hot coals on the bottom, and it will stay that way for a pretty long time. So I think most of the heat produced by my stove is going out into the living space, not up the flue.

I agree that older 'smoke dragon' stoves CAN be operated such that they burn clean and if everyone did so then it would be great... but then again, new EPA stoves CAN be operated to smoke just as much as a 'smoke dragon' so where does that leave us? Hmmmm - bottom line seems to be the responsibility lays with the operator.

Uh... yeah. The EPA has removed the intelligence factor from burning, doesn't mean the new stoves are magic. It's like putting cats and rev limiting devices on a chainsaw. They'll produce less emissions, but they'll also produce less power. I want power in a stove, so I will likely use the one I have and produce a few more emissions. Those emissions, however, are not wasting half my potential heat. Insulating the crap out of a non-cat stove in order to get the burn chamber hotter for cleaner combustion is a sure way to limit the potential power of a stove.

I do believe it is easier to get an EPA stove to burn cleaner on a consistent basis and that overall the efficiency will be greater.

No one is doubting this, it just a matter of degree. 20%, possibly 30% I might be able to accept. But claims of a 100% increase in efficiency? C'mon.

 

[KB007]

Take a look at the Napoleon 1450 - it's a basic black version of the 1400.

As for insulation - do it. I'd do both at the same time if you can. I'd also get the stove first and do the insultation slowly if you're doing the work yourself. At least with the new stove you'll be nice and warm installing the insulation.

 

[oldspark]

"Insulating the crap out of a non-cat stove in order to get the burn chamber hotter for cleaner combustion is a sure way to limit the potential power of a stove." Knock it off BK, I want to feel good about my new stove.
:cheese:

 

[BrowningBAR]

So back to your question "where is all the waste?" - the answer is simply "up the flue." Basically my understanding is that older stove designs required more air to get to a clean burn. Thus more air in = more air up the flue. That is heat headed right out of the house.

Sorry, no way in hell am I sending an extra three cord of wood up my chimney as lost heat. I'm not using an old Franklin-type stove, my stove is as air-tight in design as any of the newer stoves, even more so. My flue temps end up being the same as most folks here report - about 300ºF when cruising in downdraft mode (which is where my stove sits 90% of the time). My stove temps (600-650º) at those same flue temps are much higher than these same people report (450-550º), so my stove is putting out a load of heat by comparison with newer radiant designs. Then my flue temps drop as the coaling stage begins, just like everybody else. It's not unusual at all for me to find the flue temps at 225º and the stove still at 500-550º with a big bed of orange-hot coals on the bottom, and it will stay that way for a pretty long time. So I think most of the heat produced by my stove is going out into the living space, not up the flue.

I agree that older 'smoke dragon' stoves CAN be operated such that they burn clean and if everyone did so then it would be great... but then again, new EPA stoves CAN be operated to smoke just as much as a 'smoke dragon' so where does that leave us? Hmmmm - bottom line seems to be the responsibility lays with the operator.

Uh... yeah. The EPA has removed the intelligence factor from burning, doesn't mean the new stoves are magic. It's like putting cats and rev limiting devices on a chainsaw. They'll produce less emissions, but they'll also produce less power. I want power in a stove, so I will likely use the one I have and produce a few more emissions. Those emissions, however, are not wasting half my potential heat. Insulating the crap out of a non-cat stove in order to get the burn chamber hotter for cleaner combustion is a sure way to limit the potential power of a stove.

I do believe it is easier to get an EPA stove to burn cleaner on a consistent basis and that overall the efficiency will be greater.

No one is doubting this, it just a matter of degree. 20%, possibly 30% I might be able to accept. But claims of a 100% increase in efficiency? C'mon.

So, the fact that the Heritage burns longer with a smaller firebox than the Vigilant doesn't show a vast increase in efficiency? No one is saying the Vigilant is a bad stove, but I know for a fact it chews threw wood a LOT faster than a newer stove.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

Oh my yes Jreed, you must insulate that basement before doing anything else.

As for the ongoing debate about just how much more efficient the new EPA stoves are over the old air-tight stoves, I believe the common percentage increase is usually quoted around 30%, however I'm sure it varies from stove to stove.
Going by my own circumstance with EPA stove in the 1500 sq ft house, and old air-tight in the 480 sq ft shop, I can tell you that it takes about equal wood in the house and in the shop to keep the stoves going, with the big advantage going to the house stove for overnight burns. The stove in the shop just won't keep an overnight burn going. The shop often gets too hot because the stove is over sized, but you still need a certain amount of fire in the box to sustain the fire. The EPA stove in the house sustains a low fire and coals much better.
Not very scientific I know, but those are my observations.
Oh one last comment about radiant heat, my EPA stove puts out plenty, it is mostly directed towards the front because it has to, to obtain those very short clearances to the sides and to the back that newer stove often have. I would have to say that I have felt a lot more heat coming off my EPA stove than my older (larger) stove in the shop, but then I don't run that shop stove very hard as a rule.

 

[Pagey]

Go read this handy little .pdf to see just how many BTUs you're bleeding out those uninsulated walls.

http://www.woodstove.com/pages/guidepdfs/BasementInstall.pdf

 

[Battenkiller]

So, the fact that the Heritage burns longer with a smaller firebox than the Vigilant doesn't show a vast increase in efficiency?

That fact, in and of itself, demonstrates nothing at all about efficiency. You are leaving heat output out of the equation. My compost pile produces heat all summer long, but it ain't producing a lot of BTU/hour, nor is it very efficient.

I have no idea how you burned your Vig, but I know how I burn mine. Got it dialed in pretty good at this point, and yesterday I blew out a ton of ash (very messy job BTW) from all the air passages and it's running cleaner and hotter than ever. Very stable burns with a warm stove and coals left in the morning to start a new fire. 14 hour burns like some makers claim? Hardly, but a good 7-8 hours. I only sleep about 5-6 hours, so it works great for me.

BBAR, if you want real efficiency, get a cat stove... what are you waiting for?

 

[BrowningBAR]

So, the fact that the Heritage burns longer with a smaller firebox than the Vigilant doesn't show a vast increase in efficiency?

That fact, in and of itself, demonstrates nothing at all about efficiency. You are leaving heat output out of the equation. My compost pile produces heat all summer long, but it ain't producing a lot of BTU/hour, nor is it very efficient.

I have no idea how you burned your Vig, but I know how I burn mine. Got it dialed in pretty good at this point, and yesterday I blew out a ton of ash (very messy job BTW) from all the air passages and it's running cleaner and hotter than ever. Very stable burns with a warm stove and coals left in the morning to start a new fire. 14 hour burns like some makers claim? Hardly, but a good 7-8 hours. I only sleep about 5-6 hours, so it works great for me.

BBAR, if you want real efficiency, get a cat stove... what are you waiting for?

I can run a Heritage at 500° longer than I can the Vigilant on a smaller load of wood.

I have a cat stove, also.

 

[Battenkiller]

I can run a Heritage at 500° longer than I can the Vigilant on a smaller load of wood.

Never doubted you could, but you said you'll use half the wood for the same amount of heat in an EPA stove, and that is a bold claim. That's a whole different animal than saying you can maintain the same temperature for longer with less wood. Again, a matter of degree.

Anyway, I'm holding out for the next generation of hybrid stoves to arrive. For some folks, changing stoves is as easy as changing spouses, but I'll need more convincing evidence before I make the jump... to either.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I can run a Heritage at 500° longer than I can the Vigilant on a smaller load of wood.

Never doubted you could, but you said you'll use half the wood for the same amount of heat in an EPA stove, and that is a bold claim. That's a whole different animal than saying you can maintain the same temperature for longer with less wood. Again, a matter of degree.

Anyway, I'm holding out for the next generation of hybrid stoves to arrive. For some folks, changing stoves is as easy as changing spouses, but I'll need more convincing evidence before I make the jump... to either.

I go through 4 to 4.5 cords of wood with the Vigilant. I can see cutting it down by 1.5-2 cords with the Heritage. And my exact quote was "If I replaced the Vigilant with a newer stove I would probably reduce the wood consumption in half."

 

[corey21]

I have noticed with my new stove that it is very easy on the wood. I can build a hot fire in the morning let that go out. The mass of the stove keeps the house warm and my house is 1800 sq ft.

 

[wkpoor]

I have noticed with my new stove that it is very easy on the wood. I can build a hot fire in the morning let that go out. The mass of the stove keeps the house warm and my house is 1800 sq ft.

It hasn't been cold yet. Just wait till 20 and 20mph winds or much worse. You'll be firing that thing for all its worth to keep up.

 

[oldspark]

I'm sure there is a myriad of reasons why the comparisons are tough to make.
Are all the new EPA stoves small in size? Most I've seen look to be half the average smoke dragon size. And that means less surface area to radiate from.
Not to belittle anything but some of the log burn times had by new stoves could be more efficient ways to smolder less wood in a smaller fire box.
I read and hear the argument for less wood consumption. However I'm thinking many are like me with an unending supply of free hardwoods so consumption rate is of no concern to me.
With all this said (and I admit a little negative sounding towards new stoves) I'm not opposed to owning a new stove. Problem with reference to original post, is you can't test drive a stove. Basically its a referral thing. However how many people after spending 2-3K on a stove are going to honestly tell you they are a little less than happy with the purchase.

If my new stove wont heat the house I will shout it from the roof tops and shove it up some bodys ash.

 

[Slow1]

However how many people after spending 2-3K on a stove are going to honestly tell you they are a little less than happy with the purchase.

I'm more than happy to tell folks I was very disappointed with my first stove - that NC Encore lasted less than 6 months in my home. Sure wish they had the same return policy as Woodstock but as it is I lost a lot of $'s with that mistake. Much happier now.

So - we are out here, just ask.

 

[Battenkiller]

I have noticed with my new stove that it is very easy on the wood. I can build a hot fire in the morning let that go out. The mass of the stove keeps the house warm and my house is 1800 sq ft.

OK... how does 342 pounds of stove have enough thermal mass to warm a 1800 sq.ft. home all day long?

 

[SolarAndWood]

I have noticed with my new stove that it is very easy on the wood. I can build a hot fire in the morning let that go out. The mass of the stove keeps the house warm and my house is 1800 sq ft.

OK... how does 342 pounds of stove have enough thermal mass to warm a 1800 sq.ft. home all day long?

Have you been outside today?

 

[corey21]

I have noticed with my new stove that it is very easy on the wood. I can build a hot fire in the morning let that go out. The mass of the stove keeps the house warm and my house is 1800 sq ft.

OK... how does 342 pounds of stove have enough thermal mass to warm a 1800 sq.ft. home all day long?

Have you been outside today?

Not all day long. Outside now its 68.

 

[Battenkiller]

I have noticed with my new stove that it is very easy on the wood. I can build a hot fire in the morning let that go out. The mass of the stove keeps the house warm and my house is 1800 sq ft.

OK... how does 342 pounds of stove have enough thermal mass to warm a 1800 sq.ft. home all day long?

Have you been outside today?

Good point. I passed gas earlier today and the joint went up 2º.

 

[corey21]

I have noticed with my new stove that it is very easy on the wood. I can build a hot fire in the morning let that go out. The mass of the stove keeps the house warm and my house is 1800 sq ft.

OK... how does 342 pounds of stove have enough thermal mass to warm a 1800 sq.ft. home all day long?

Have you been outside today?

Good point. I passed gas earlier today and the joint went up 2º.

Well :lol: