Older VC Defiant & Encore Questions

[leeave96]

I was chatting with my Dad today about an old woodstove he had. It was a Vermont Castings Defiant or Defiant Encore - he doesn't remember nor do I.

The stove was bought and installed sometime about 1992 and he had a new masonary chimney built with an 8 inch thimble. He seems to recall that the stove pipe dictated the 8 inch thimble on the chimney.

The stove was a cat model and inspite of cutting dead wood, he got gallons of creosote with the VC and found himself cleaning the chimney about once a month or so. He sold it in about 1996-ish.

My question is - what VC stove was made in the 1992 time frame - the Defiant or the Defiant Encore and how did they differ, size only? I'm thinking my Dad, inspite of good wood, never burned the stove/cat correctly and that made for a lot of creosote. But really, were these older VC cat stoves as clean burning as today's cat stoves?

Thanks!
Bill

 

[BrowningBAR]

I was chatting with my Dad today about an old woodstove he had. It was a Vermont Castings Defiant or Defiant Encore - he doesn't remember nor do I.

The stove was bought and installed sometime about 1992 and he had a new masonary chimney built with an 8 inch thimble. He seems to recall that the stove pipe dictated the 8 inch thimble on the chimney.

The stove was a cat model and inspite of cutting dead wood, he got gallons of creosote with the VC and found himself cleaning the chimney about once a month or so. He sold it in about 1996-ish.

My question is - what VC stove was made in the 1992 time frame - the Defiant or the Defiant Encore and how did they differ, size only? I'm thinking my Dad, inspite of good wood, never burned the stove/cat correctly and that made for a lot of creosote. But really, were these older VC cat stoves as clean burning as today's cat stoves?

Thanks!
Bill

Dead wood doesn't mean it's dry wood.

And VC has made the Defiant and Encore for years. Two different size stoves.

 

[jetmech]

I bought a new Defiant encore in 1991. it was a model 0028 i believe... and i also sat it on a hearth and vented it into a unlined 8x11 masonry chimney.. im not certain if that was exact size but was large rectangle chimney. stove had good draft and i burned it pretty hot, did not have creosote issues and loved the stove. When i moved back to Pa i vented it into a 6 inch metal chimney and had back puffing issues, i think the old encores draw much better at 8 inches as they were designed for. I now burn a old intrepid ii 1303 and am looking for larger stove. the intrepids box is small but its still a fine heater.

 

[leeave96]

I'm thinking that my Dad never burned the stove hot enough as he was keen on preserving the firewoood. He was very good at cutting dead - the kind of stuff that had been dead for years and the bark falling of it. He also did a good job of covering his wood. I had a similar thing with my Woodstock Keystone - only in my case, the draft was not very good. I got flakey creososte in my stove pipe. A new stainless steel liner cured that.

I'm thinking that he rairly got the stove hot enough to fire the cat and with the stove dampered down, he had what amounted to an airtight stove/creosote factory. Knowing what I know now, I would have liked to got my hands on that stove for a try.

So the Encore came with an 8 inch stove pipe connection as standard?

Thanks!
Bill

 

[raybonz]

I have an old EPA Phase I cat stove and it burns as clean as a new stove.. I think the difference is the new stoves have added refractory mat'l so the stove achieves catalytic operation quicker.. I added high temp insulation around my cat chamber recently and have noticed faster cat warm up and better heat retention on reload.. The catalytic combustors have not changed that I am aware of except for the new SteelCats that are available.. I still use the ceramic combustors but may try steel someday..

Ray

 

[defiant3]

Defiant and Defiant Encore were two entirely different stoves,and I frankly think it was a poor choice that they shared the same name. V.C. agreed, apparantly, because later it was in fact renamed "Encore".

Defiants were made 1975-1987,and were conventional stoves with no clean burning stuff like you'd see today. THey'd swallow a 24" log, no glass, front and side load, big honkin' stove.

Encores appeared in1987 and were only just discontinued this season. Beautiful stove with every feature you can imagine. They were catalytic untyil about 5 years ago, when a non-cat version hit the streets. Generally speaking, they turn out to be great heaters, but if you find yourself burning more than 3 or so cords of wood each year, the catalyst and other expensive stuff in there wears out with amazing regularity, and they can become not cost effective to operate. Many people have good luck with them,though. Properly run, an Encore should be VERY clean burning. Encore is sized about a third smaller than the old Defiant.

 

[SolarAndWood]

I had two Encores with straight up class A and never had any back puffing or creosote issues. However, that should not be construed as an endorsement of this stove.

 

[raybonz]

Defiant and Defiant Encore were two entirely different stoves,and I frankly think it was a poor choice that they shared the same name. V.C. agreed, apparantly, because later it was in fact renamed "Encore".

Defiants were made 1975-1987,and were conventional stoves with no clean burning stuff like you'd see today. THey'd swallow a 24" log, no glass, front and side load, big honkin' stove.

Encores appeared in1987 and were only just discontinued this season. Beautiful stove with every feature you can imagine. They were catalytic untyil about 5 years ago, when a non-cat version hit the streets. Generally speaking, they turn out to be great heaters, but if you find yourself burning more than 3 or so cords of wood each year, the catalyst and other expensive stuff in there wears out with amazing regularity, and they can become not cost effective to operate. Many people have good luck with them,though. Properly run, an Encore should be VERY clean burning. Encore is sized about a third smaller than the old Defiant.

The cat stoves ran fine catalyst lifewise however the (N)everburn non-cats have been the troublesome stoves from what people have posted here.. Most people experience pretty decent cat life and I for one usually get around 6 yrs. and they cost about $125.00....

Ray

 

[defiant3]

Just to clear my head ,Ray, do you mean $125 for your 6'' round cat.? Cause I gotta hit people up for $200 for an E ncore cat. They're bigger, and of course fit ONLY the Encore, thank you once again Vermont Castings...

 

[jetmech]

When i went to buy my stove in 1991 i wasnt even aware the encore exsisted, Defiant was only stove i knew.. my encore served me well, only problem was broken primary air lever cable and the dealer in Winston Salem came out and replaced it. It heated my home there and i burned it 24/7... i sold the stove in 2004 for 400.00 . My current intrepid is kind of like a scaled down model of my old stove, same enamel color and styling. i still like the older model VC stoves they were well built

 

[raybonz]

Just to clear my head ,Ray, do you mean $125 for your 6'' round cat.? Cause I gotta hit people up for $200 for an E ncore cat. They're bigger, and of course fit ONLY the Encore, thank you once again Vermont Castings...

Yes as a matter of fact I can get one right now for $118.88 shipped free right now from here: http://www.inandoutlifestyles.com/wostcaco.html .. The 6" round by 2" thick is a common size...

Ray

PS: You can buy cats here too: http://firecatcombustors.com/Catalog/cat-Vermont.htm

 

[defiant3]

If the Encores had been designed to be simpler inside and use more commonly available parts, like a 6'' round cat. for example, fewer of them would be on the scrap heap now. Too bad in a way . It's no fun to have to break the news to a customer that their stove needs a $900.00 repair when everything has gone kerflooey. (did I spell that right?)

 

[jetmech]

FWIW Vermont castings is now building a stove called 2 in 1... comes in encore or defiant models.. has a cat and secondary air option in same stove, there are some users on the forum.. still waiting to see how they like them, i have been looking at Lopi endeavor it is bullet proof and has great reviews

 

[raybonz]

If the Encores had been designed to be simpler inside and use more commonly available parts, like a 6'' round cat. for example, fewer of them would be on the scrap heap now. Too bad in a way . It's no fun to have to break the news to a customer that their stove needs a $900.00 repair when everything has gone kerflooey. (did I spell that right?)

I hear you and feel your pain.. That sucks because they make a good looking stove but cost a fortune to keep going.. The stove I run rarely needs anything and has cost very little over the years..

Ray

 

[defiant3]

The thing is, I'm quite sure that for the foreseeable future, people will post singing the praises of their new V.C. 2in1's. Sadly, it'll be several years before the world knows how well these stoves hold up, and weather or not they turn out like so many other Castings products of the last 20 years, which is to say expensive and built to stay that way.

They work SO hard to keep the top load feature by engineering complicated 2ndary burn arrangements! O.K. I guess, but wouldn't you rather spend your hard earned on technology that is simple and proven to be reliable? Like almost ANY other stove? Oh, don't get me started...

 

[SolarAndWood]

They work SO hard to keep the top load feature by engineering complicated 2ndary burn arrangements! O.K. I guess, but wouldn't you rather spend your hard earned on technology that is simple and proven to be reliable?

Heard that. We were pretty hung up on the top load feature but now don't miss it. One door, one gasket, no reaching down into the firebox to adjust an errant placement and no splits rolling into the glass. Seems a whole lot simpler to either get a taller stove or build a raised hearth to accomplish the same working height as the top load.

 

[homebrewz]

I've been running a Defiant Encore #0028 which I rebuilt, since the winter of '06-'07. My thoughts are as follows:

Positives: Its an attractive stove; I think its a great heater for a modern, tight construction; if you are very familiar with cat stoves it may not be any harder to operate than other cat stoves (I'm not sure about this one as its the only one I've owned); I've had no problems running it into a 6" insulated 20' to 24' liner inside of a masonry chimney.
Uhh, did I mention its an attractive stove?

Negatives: It has a lot of moving parts; some replacement parts are very expensive (especially the cat and refractory); it requires an oval to round which for single wall is an expensive piece of pipe; double glass in doors is kind of a pain.. twice as much glass to worry about (not sure how many stoves have this design); for someone new to modern wood stoves I think it has a big learning curve.

Overall, I would like to keep it, but I think its undersized for my current needs and am looking for something along the lines of an Englander NC-30 or equivalent. I may keep it for a cabin someday as were I to sell it, I'm likely to only get back about half of the money I invested in it.

 

[fredarm]

The old Defiants were wonderful stoves in their day. My parents had one on their NH ski condo. They had a primitive type of seconday combustion called horizontal combustion. You could burn it with the front doors open like a fireplace. The also had a thermostat on the primary air inlet. You could close the doors, load it up from the side, get a good fire going, pull the lever for horizontal combustion, and it would burn all night, with the themostat keeping the heat relatively even. Of course, they didn't burn as clean as today's stoves, but they were real workhorses.

 

[defiant3]

THAT'S what I'm talkin' about! That's the kind of product that built V.C.'s reputation, and frankly, I think it's carried them through decades of marginal stoves. Oh dear, I just KNOW I've offended someone out there-O.K., not everyone agrees, but still, I can get my old DEfiant to plow through 4-5 cords a year, and I'm cleanin' my chimney once . Are they as clean as an EPA stove? No . They are not as fuel efficiant, but they can be more cost efficiant. As long as parts are available to keep my old guy alive, I think I will. OLder stoves are not always the answer, but I fear sometimes we're frightened off by ratings and test results when it's not necessary.

 

[remkel]

My father bought a Defiant in 1978 and it is still chugging along. Absolutely fantastic stove and yes, 8" pipe. Only does one cleaning a year, burns great and long, and throws phenomenal heat! Miss that stove and wish I was running one here.

 

[defiant3]

As it happens ,I have a rebuilt one for sale...