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  1. sandman59

    sandman59 Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    50
    Loc:
    Northwestern PA
    I have the EKO 40 Super which is in its 4th year of use, the condition of the boiler is excellent. Would anyone be able to give me an idea what I could sell this system for including all the controls, expansion tank, pump, etc.

    Thanks

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  2. sandman59

    sandman59 Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    50
    Loc:
    Northwestern PA
    Sorry, i just saw the post below about used pricing on boilers. I guess $3,500 would be a good place to start. I have a decision to make, either spend $2000 to redo my underground piping, move the boiler cleser to the house, or buy a condensing LP boiler with the money from selling the EKO. I have grown tired of seeing 110 feet of piping melt the snow, increasing my wood usage tremendously.
  3. stee6043

    stee6043 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,291
    Loc:
    West Michigan
    Any chance it could go in the house? This would dramatically reduce your cost to redo the plumbing...
  4. huffdawg

    huffdawg Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,043
    Loc:
    British Columbia Canada
    I have a lpg. mod con boiler I can't wait till I dont have to use it anymore. LPG. is .93 litre over $4.00 a gal. It will cost well over 2 grand for a modcon. Fix up your underground it will save you money in the long run.

    Huff
  5. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    3,668
    Loc:
    Nova Scotia
    If all else is in place, I think I would just dig up my pipe and re-do that. If you're melting snow, it's not the fact that it's in the ground, it's the fact it was put in the ground the wrong way. Add some storage while you're at it and you should be golden for minimal cost.
  6. Tennman

    Tennman Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    621
    Loc:
    Southern Tenn
    Read the sticky. You should be able to reuse your pex lines even if they are inside some crappy insulation. I reused my Pex. The guy running the mini-backhoe was careful so the expense was only the foaming contractor and the dirt work. Unless you're just sick of running the boiler, by far your least expensive option is getting a guy with a gentle touch on a small backhoe or mini-excavator. Geez do I feel your pain. I presume you've read my story in the underground sticky. If not read it.
  7. ihookem

    ihookem Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    582
    Loc:
    Allenton, Wisconsin
    Tennman you still kicken huh. I though of you the other day when I saw some cheap under ground pipe some store was trying to sell the other day. O.P. will spend 14-15 bucks a foot for new stuff but worth it. I guess you can foam it if ya can dig around it without ripping it. You are 90 % done wit the boiler. Don't stop now. Do it one more time the right way and when it's done the night mare is done. Might move the boiler a bit closer to the house. I'm 120' and wish I would of went just 15' closer. Save digging and 225 bucks of pipe. You have a great boiler Go for it.
  8. sandman59

    sandman59 Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    50
    Loc:
    Northwestern PA
    Quote "If you’re melting snow, it’s not the fact that it’s in the ground, it’s the fact it was put in the ground the wrong way.". Wow, you dont know anything about the installation or my abilities and yet you make that statement. I will be nice and just say...I strongly disagree with your off the cuff assessment of my situation.

    To the others who have commented...I have been toying around with the idea of reusing the pex or moving the boiler closer to the house. In the house in not really an option as the smell of smoke is the reason we have this boiler outdoor. (our first wood boiler was inside)
  9. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    3,668
    Loc:
    Nova Scotia
    Just stating my opinion that a properly installed & insulated pipe will not melt snow, which you said it was doing - I don't think I was the only one that mentioned that. No insults intended, I have no idea exactly how it was installed or who did it. But melting snow is not a sign of a good installation, and that was all you gave to us to assess with. Why then would you be considering redo-ing the underground piping and re-using the pipe (all from your input) if there was not an existing installation issue?
  10. timberr

    timberr Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    226
    Loc:
    Hill, NH
    My Eko 25 is in the basement w/storage, never had a problem with smell.

    Don't go to propane, I have a condensing propane boiler and it isn't as great as it seems. At $3.98/gal it is no bargin!

    If you are tired of dealing with firewood, well that I can understand. Hope you can overcome your Gasser issues.
  11. Chris S

    Chris S New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    339
    Loc:
    Orange County NY
    I used time saver pipe inside 6" SDR pipe as a conduit to my boiler room. This was a huge mistake. I also melted snow. My guess was 20-30% of heat was lost in the 70' run.

    I dug it up this past fall and re-insulated the pipe as many here have done from the start. I should have known better.

    If that's your weak link, then fix it. I'm in my 3rd season, and don't mind the trip out to the boiler room to light or feed a fire. I keep a flying magazine at hand to pass the 10 minute light- gasifying time. We burned maybe 100 gallons of oil in the past 12 months. The oil company thinks I'm shopping to beat their price.
  12. Tennman

    Tennman Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    621
    Loc:
    Southern Tenn
    Hey ihookem... yup this is one of my favorite hang out spots. Being a Texas Longhorn everytime I see your handle I wanna say Hookem Horns! But I guess you're probably a fisherman.

    Rich, I just recently posted some data on the Underground sticky of my temp loss data. I have a AZEL sensor in the boiler room with the thermocouples attached to the brass pex fittings. And another AZEL in the house on the entrance and exit HX fittings. So I have real data on the pex round trip. I'm losing maybe .5degF between the boiler exit and where I attach to the pex. But for computing transit losses I've got it pretty well nailed. The only corrupting factor in the round trip loss is what I lose in the root cellar and a large black iron manifold where I lose a bunch of radiant energy. But it's under my TV room so I sorta have radiant floor heat there.

    Bottomline, even with about 30' not well insulated in the root cellar my round trip temp loss is about .005 degF/ft. If you have a 110 ft run I'm going to make some guesses. 220' underground + 20' to the boiler + ~10' in the boiler room = ~250' round trip. Your system properly insulated should lose about 1.25=1.5 degF round trip. If you're way up north where your ground is much colder than mine maybe that goes to 2 degF round trip. So if you can measure exit temp precisely while you know your system is idling and return you will know what's going on. Key is to do the measurement when there is little demand from the house so the return temps stabilize.

    Again if your burnt out using wood that's one thing, but your snow melt indicates a huge energy leak.
  13. sandman59

    sandman59 Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    50
    Loc:
    Northwestern PA
    A little more background...I bought my system from Cozy Heat in 2008. I bought their insulated pex pipe after assurance from them that it would not melt snow, yes, I actually asked that question. I think they called it triple wrap pipe which is installed in 4" corrugated pipe. I buried the line at a depth of about 28", backfilling by hand to ensure that wasn't any rocks near the pipe. After looking at the pipe and how it is insulated, I believe that condensation occured inside the 4" pipe since the two pipes are basically beside one another. Once this insulation gets wet, it is ruined and this is what has happened.

    I dont mind burning wood, I just don't like to waste my time, extra time to cut and split additional wood, extra time to feed the boiler just to heat the ground. I have enough wood for this season, now I just have to look at all of my options. I will read the sticky on underground piping, I may find adddtional options. I will also measure my pipe temperatures this weekend and get a number for my temperature differentials. I have only about 3 foot of each pex line inside the boiler room and about 8 foot of each line inside my basement, so about 244 feet total in pex piping. I will post my findings.


    Thanks
  14. Tennman

    Tennman Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    621
    Loc:
    Southern Tenn
    Too bad. When you read the sticky you'll see lots of similar stories to yours of users that used the wrapped stuff. If you choose to foam I'd reuse the pex you have. Just cut it out of the wrapped mess and throw everything away except the pex.
  15. ALASKAPF185

    ALASKAPF185 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    56
    Loc:
    MI
    Unfortunately the S&R lines are the first things people skimp on , all too often DIY'ers find out the hard way. If the S&R temps are only seeing a couple degrees Delta T then the pump could be way oversized. To maximize efficiency a Delta T of 20 degrees should be maintained , if not , there isn't enough BTU's transferring to the radiation. Simply by slowing the pump down you will see a higher DT. Just because you have a low temp loss over a run doesn't always mean its efficient.
  16. stee6043

    stee6043 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2008
    Messages:
    2,291
    Loc:
    West Michigan
    I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "I don't mind burning wood" to heat. If you don't enjoy it, I mean...really enjoy it, you might want to consider cutting your losses.

    Wood heating is, and always will be, a part time job (or very involved hobby) for those who cut, split and stack their own wood. If you don't take a fair amount of pleasure in being outside processing the wood and feeding that boiler every day during the winter you will likely be better off selling your EKO and investing in a high efficiency fossil fuel powered heating system.

    Put that beast up on Craigslist for $4,000 and see what happens. If you don't like heating with wood now, you're not going to like it next year. Even with a new run of pex in the ground.
  17. DaBackBurner

    DaBackBurner Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    84
    Loc:
    UP Michigan
    I am venturing a guess here, but I think Tennman was referring to the S&R runs under constant circulation (possibly to prevent freezing or other variables I'm not aware of) without a call for heat, to determine the performance of the underground lines themselves. If you had a ΔT of 20 without a call for heat...something 'taint right.
  18. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    3,668
    Loc:
    Nova Scotia
    I don't think it matters if there is a call for heat or not, if concerned about undergrornd losses. Measure the supply line where it enters the ground, measure where it comes out, and if there is more than a couple of degrees difference (or so), there are issues.

    But, there should be a 20 degree difference between the supply right before the load, and the return right after - I guess these are two different issues and this one doesn't really have anything to do with underground issues.
  19. ALASKAPF185

    ALASKAPF185 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2012
    Messages:
    56
    Loc:
    MI
    These measurements can be misleading, the pump speed can exacerbate the loss if its undersized or show almost no loss if its oversized. The only way to measure accurately is with an infrared camera. Pumps unfortunately are one of those very important details that are often overlooked because of the knowledge and extra calculations needed to size accurately. When in doubt go bigger is what many do, and this is a mistake.
  20. Tennman

    Tennman Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    621
    Loc:
    Southern Tenn
    Yes DaBack and Maple, you are both correct. My .005degF/ft loss number is conservative since it includes root cellar losses in my house. My in-house AZEL sensor is at the HX not where the pex comes thru the foundation. So it's cheating, but conservative cheating to measure the round trip in the boiler barn. So I check the round trip loss during periods of low house demand when the circ pump is running but not the blower much. Like today. Mid-50's. I'm seeing a loss of 1.6 DegF in the barn after the +400ft round trip. But the blower is only coming on every 10-15 minutes today. Someday I will move that in-house sensor to the foundation wall to get exact one way transit loss which is the proper way to measure underground only losses. But at the moment I'm more interested in measuring HX temp drop when the blower is running, which is about 20 deg.

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