Over firing and corrugated flex liner

[woodhog73]

Accidentally over fired my smallish sized insert. Dam doorbell rang and I just lit the stove. Had lots of kindling in the thing , couple pieces of very dry red oak, and one pine natural fire starter. Both air controls wide open.

No idea how hot it got but hotter than ever before. Intense ticking from rapid cooling as soon as I shut the air off.

So my question....stove seems fine inside. But I can't see the liner. How well do the corrugated single wall 6 inch flex liners and the appliance adapter that connects it to the stove hold up to extreme hot situations? Not like I do that all the time but are they built to take the occasional and accidental over fire ?

Thanks

 

[bholler]

So my question....stove seems fine inside. But I can't see the liner. How well do the corrugated single wall 6 inch flex liners and the appliance adapter that connects it to the stove hold up to extreme hot situations? Not like I do that all the time but are they built to take the occasional and accidental over fire ?

It is probably fine but I would probably pull the surround to make sure it is all hook up right still and there is no obvious damage. Or if you are really concerned call a sweep to scan it.

 

[webby3650]

They are made to handle flue fires. The liner is fine, burn on!

 

[webby3650]

How hot was the stovetop?

 

[bholler]

They are made to handle flue fires. The liner is fine, burn on!

It is probably fine there is no way for you or I to say it is fine without seeing it. We don't know how it was hooked up ect. If it got really hot and it was just screwed fast through the light wall liner those screws can easily let loose at high temps.

 

[woodhog73]

Thanks guys for your feedback. You see it everyday so I appreciate your input.

So from what I gather from Webby the flex liner itself can withstand very high temps and that itself is unlikely to be damaged from an accidental over fire. That makes sense that it would be rated for possible flue fires. Makes good sense I learned something new .

Bholler thanks to you equally. What you said about the screws holding the liner to the adapter and stove makes perfect sense. I can see where a simple screw could be more exposed to heat. What I can say ( after just removing the surround face plate a few weeks ago when I swept my system for indirection) is this......the liner is attached to an adapter by 2 visible metal screws . Then the stove has these 2 metal tabs that are bent up 90 degrees and those are screwed into the adapter using what looks like metal screws.

No idea if the screws are hi temperate rated ? Do you guys use special hi temp rated screws when installing ? To me they look like sheet metal screws but again no idea of the heat rating.

So I'll just pull the face plate surround again and double check everything. It's easy to do.

Webby no idea on temps. It's an insert that's does stick out a foot or so. I
Could put a magnetic thermometer on the exposed area but I didn't think that was as accurate as putting it on the stove pipe ? Mines an insert so no way to check pipe temp.

 

[webby3650]

Thanks guys for your feedback. You see it everyday so I appreciate your input.

So from what I gather from Webby the flex liner itself can withstand very high temps and that itself is unlikely to be damaged from an accidental over fire. That makes sense that it would be rated for possible flue fires. Makes good sense I learned something new .

Bholler thanks to you equally. What you said about the screws holding the liner to the adapter and stove makes perfect sense. I can see where a simple screw could be more exposed to heat. What I can say ( after just removing the surround face plate a few weeks ago when I swept my system for indirection) is this......the liner is attached to an adapter by 2 visible metal screws . Then the stove has these 2 metal tabs that are bent up 90 degrees and those are screwed into the adapter using what looks like metal screws.

No idea if the screws are hi temperate rated ? Do you guys use special hi temp rated screws when installing ? To me they look like sheet metal screws but again no idea of the heat rating.

So I'll just pull the face plate surround again and double check everything. It's easy to do.

Webby no idea on temps. It's an insert that's does stick out a foot or so. I
Could put a magnetic thermometer on the exposed area but I didn't think that was as accurate as putting it on the stove pipe ? Mines an insert so no way to check pipe temp.

There's no reason to put a therm on the pipe with modern stoves. There's no need, stove top temps are what you need to monitor. Pick one up, I'll bet your fire wasn't as hot as you think it was.

 

[bholler]

There's no reason to put a therm on the pipe with modern stoves. There's no need, stove top temps are what you need to monitor. Pick one up, I'll bet your fire wasn't as hot as you think it was.

Why do you constantly make assumptions with nothing to base them on? We have no idea what temp his stove was neither does he. Why not just check everything out to be safe? You do realize that liners do fail from being over heated right? It would be very uncommon for it to happen with one over fire but it can happen. And some modern stoves want you to go by pipe temp some want stove top temps some don't specify at all.

Bholler thanks to you equally. What you said about the screws holding the liner to the adapter and stove makes perfect sense. I can see where a simple screw could be more exposed to heat. What I can say ( after just removing the surround face plate a few weeks ago when I swept my system for indirection) is this......the liner is attached to an adapter by 2 visible metal screws . Then the stove has these 2 metal tabs that are bent up 90 degrees and those are screwed into the adapter using what looks like metal screws.

Just pull the surround and check everything out. I don't expect you will find any issues but I think it is a good idea to check it out. And if anything doesn't look right take some pics and post here. we should be able to tell you if it looks like you should have a pro check it out.

 

[webby3650]

Why do you constantly make assumptions with nothing to base them on? We have no idea what temp his stove was neither does he. Why not just check everything out to be safe? You do realize that liners do fail from being over heated right? It would be very uncommon for it to happen with one over fire but it can happen. And some modern stoves want you to go by pipe temp some want stove top temps some don't specify at all.


Just pull the surround and check everything out. I don't expect you will find any issues but I think it is a good idea to check it out. And if anything doesn't look right take some pics and post here. we should be able to tell you if it looks like you should have a pro check it out.

Stove top temps are what need to be monitored. Or internal flue temps, surface tells you almost nothing.

 

[bholler]

Stove top temps are what need to be monitored.

on what stove? And where should he be monitoring that temp on his insert? I find that pipe temps respond to changes in the fire much quicker than stove top temps so I always go by my pipe temp. The fact is that both numbers are important and useful when operating a stove. And due to the fact that we don't know what stove he has there once again is no basis for you to assume anything about where he should be monitoring temps. We dont even know if it is a modern insert for that matter.

 

[webby3650]

on what stove? And where should he be monitoring that temp on his insert? I find that pipe temps respond to changes in the fire much quicker than stove top temps so I always go by my pipe temp. The fact is that both numbers are important and useful when operating a stove. And due to the fact that we don't know what stove he has there once again is no basis for you to assume anything about where he should be monitoring temps. We dont even know if it is a modern insert for that matter.

Dude, chill out! Geez!

 

[webby3650]

on what stove? And where should he be monitoring that temp on his insert? I find that pipe temps respond to changes in the fire much quicker than stove top temps so I always go by my pipe temp. The fact is that both numbers are important and useful when operating a stove. And due to the fact that we don't know what stove he has there once again is no basis for you to assume anything about where he should be monitoring temps. We dont even know if it is a modern insert for that matter.

He said he just lit the stove, how the hell hot could it get with only a few splits in it? I see 100's of liners that are abused and neglected and NON of them have any signs of failure. So why do you think it's necessary to panic? He said there's 12" of stovetop, that's plenty of room for a stovetop thermometer, how exactly do you expect him to monitor flue temps with an insert?

 

[bholler]

Dude, chill out! Geez!

I am sorry but it really bothers me when guys make blanket assumptions about things about others safety when we have nowhere near enough info to make any sort of educated evaluation. He is concerned about it and you say it is fine burn on with no info at all to back that up. To me that is totally irresponsible. I am sorry I am usually on board with most of what you say but you are off base here.

 

[bholler]

He said he just lit the stove, how the hell hot could it get with only a few splits in it? I see 100's of liner that are abused and neglected and NON of them have any signs of failure. So why do you think it's necessary to panic? He said there's 12" of stovetop, that's plenty of room for a stovetop thermometer, how exactly do you expect him to monitor flue temps with an insert?

Well we don't know how hot it could have gotten that is my point. And he said it had allot of kindling and a few pieces of oak.

And I am sorry but if you have never seen a liner that was burnt through you haven't been looking at enough chimneys. We see a few a year we just had one that the tee body was burnt through. They can and do fail especially light wall ones.

Where did I say panic? Did you bother to read my responses where I said it is probably ok but you should check it out? How do you know if that top is a convective top or not? We but remote monitors on insert flues all the time. It is not that hard to do.

I agree everything is probably fine but we dont have anywhere near enough info to say that it is fine.

 

[begreen]

For spaceouts and distractions, particularly on startup, flue temps are very important. They can rise above the continuous rating of stove pipe or liner while the stove body slowly reacts. When the air is wide open there can be flames and secondary combustion occurring well up into the liner. This has me thinking about putting a probe flue temp alarm on our stove pipe.

 

[webby3650]

For spaceouts and distractions, particularly on startup, flue temps are very important. They can rise above the continuous rating of stove pipe or liner while the stove body slowly reacts. When the air is wide open there can be flames and secondary combustion occurring well up into the liner. This has me thinking about putting a probe flue temp alarm on our stove pipe.

What do you suggest the OP does for his insert?

 

[begreen]

Inserts are a challenge for flue temp reading. I suggest he have a timer that he sets when he starts a fire and that the timer is carried with him. That works for me (as long as I remember to do this). Cell phone timer works well.

 

[webby3650]

Inserts are a challenge for flue temp reading. I suggest he have a timer that he sets when he starts a fire and that the timer is carried with him. That works for me (as long as I remember to do this). Cell phone timer works well.

That should work. But man! I can't imagine being handcuffed to a stove like that! Unless the door is cracked, it's extremely unlikely this stove actually over fired. More likely was just hotter than the OP was used to.

 

[begreen]

If one left the bypass open and spaced it out due to a phone call or child needing attention the bypass might be toasted. A timer is a good way to alert one that it's time to damper down.

 

[Squisher]

I wonder if a remote temp reader like a auberin unit wouldn't be handy for insert owners who wanted to read their flue temp. Seems it might be prohibitive to get it the full 12-18's from the flue collar a lot of the time I suppose?

That could be a 'trick' upsell on installs though. Probably not many would want to pay for it I suppose.

 

[blacktail]

Following. It's possible that I reloaded my insert around 11pm one night last month and woke up on the couch 4 hours later to find just coals and a fully open air control.

 

[bholler]

I wonder if a remote temp reader like a auberin unit wouldn't be handy for insert owners who wanted to read their flue temp. Seems it might be prohibitive to get it the full 12-18's from the flue collar a lot of the time I suppose?

That could be a 'trick' upsell on installs though. Probably not many would want to pay for it I suppose.

that is the one we carry I just wish they looked better.

 

[bholler]

Unless the door is cracked, it's extremely unlikely this stove actually over fired. More likely was just hotter than the OP was used to.

That all depends on the setup. My stove would literally be glowing if I left the air wide open for to long. And again we don't know what stove it is how tall the chimney is ect ect. I agree it is unlikely but absolutely possible.

 

[woodhog73]

Wow lots of replies. Much appreciated I have learned a lot. Since there was a lot of back and forth here I figure I would add a Couple of points to clarify.

The insert is a quadrafire 3100. Chimney lengths roughly 14 feet ish. I'm not sure how to cut and paste different responses in one message so I'm just going to summarize.

I have excellent draft. 2 air controls. Primary air enters in the front. Start up air enters from the back. There is venting on the outside chimney so this stove gets " tons" of air from the rear air control. Not an outdoor air kit just venting in the chimney block for the old metal heat form that used to be there. So no lack of air in the rear and no lack of air in general. So much air that I don't really need the start up air control to start cold fires.

Webby I was thinking about your comment on how hot could it get with only 2 splits and kindling. I agree with this thought but man the flames were so fast and roaring and were extending above the baffle and definitely being drawn up into the liner atleast a few inches. The heat being thrown from the glass on the door was intense.

I need a thermometer but the exposed stove top portion on the quadrafire looks to me like it's a decorative piece ontop of another piece ? It gets hot but is it true stove temp ? It never gets hot like the glass or door so I just assumed it wouldn't be an accurate reading and would be lower temp. But if you think putting a magnetic thermometer on the exposed top will be accurate I'll go pick one up.

My woods good and dry so on a cold start I only leave my start up air open for 3 to 5 minutes if that. But the dam doorbell rang and i screwed up. By the time I was done with the person at the door I realized I forgot my stove. Within 15 to 20 minutes and both air controls wide open my 2 splits of red oak ( 16 inch medium size splits ) were at least half way burnt up probably more than half burnt, the kindling was long gone, and my stove was mostly all red hot coals.

In regards to having a timer to remind me of when to turn the air down. Great idea but honestly I never walk away from my stove ( until this time) during cold starts. Usually 5 minutes and my fires established enough to turn the start up air off and throttle back my regular air a 1/4 or so. Then another 20 minutes I've got the air as low as I can set it and I'm good to go.

Still I'd like a thermometer. What's the deal with a remote flue thermometer ? So I'd have to remove the liner and stick the temp reader on the inside of the liner ? Sounds like a pain to do. Does anyone make a thermometer that attaches to the outside of the liner and uses wires so on an insert a person could run wires from the flue to outside the surround where the temp guage can be seen ?

At the end of the day I'm going to stop using my start up air, and be more careful. I'll put a stove top thermometer on the exposed top if it's of value with my stove ? , and like Bholler suggests I'll remove the face plate for inspection. If everything looks normal I'll let it go and keep burning. If the liner looks different than before I'll dig deeper and post some pictures

Thank guys !

 

[webby3650]

Wow lots of replies. Much appreciated I have learned a lot. Since there was a lot of back and forth here I figure I would add a Couple of points to clarify.

The insert is a quadrafire 3100. Chimney lengths roughly 14 feet ish. I'm not sure how to cut and paste different responses in one message so I'm just going to summarize.

I have excellent draft. 2 air controls. Primary air enters in the front. Start up air enters from the back. There is venting on the outside chimney so this stove gets " tons" of air from the rear air control. Not an outdoor air kit just venting in the chimney block for the old metal heat form that used to be there. So no lack of air in the rear and no lack of air in general. So much air that I don't really need the start up air control to start cold fires.

Webby I was thinking about your comment on how hot could it get with only 2 splits and kindling. I agree with this thought but man the flames were so fast and roaring and were extending above the baffle and definitely being drawn up into the liner atleast a few inches. The heat being thrown from the glass on the door was intense.

I need a thermometer but the exposed stove top portion on the quadrafire looks to me like it's a decorative piece ontop of another piece ? It gets hot but is it true stove temp ? It never gets hot like the glass or door so I just assumed it wouldn't be an accurate reading and would be lower temp. But if you think putting a magnetic thermometer on the exposed top will be accurate I'll go pick one up.

My woods good and dry so on a cold start I only leave my start up air open for 3 to 5 minutes if that. But the dam doorbell rang and i screwed up. By the time I was done with the person at the door I realized I forgot my stove. Within 15 to 20 minutes and both air controls wide open my 2 splits of red oak ( 16 inch medium size splits ) were at least half way burnt up probably more than half burnt, the kindling was long gone, and my stove was mostly all red hot coals.

In regards to having a timer to remind me of when to turn the air down. Great idea but honestly I never walk away from my stove ( until this time) during cold starts. Usually 5 minutes and my fires established enough to turn the start up air off and throttle back my regular air a 1/4 or so. Then another 20 minutes I've got the air as low as I can set it and I'm good to go.

Still I'd like a thermometer. What's the deal with a remote flue thermometer ? So I'd have to remove the liner and stick the temp reader on the inside of the liner ? Sounds like a pain to do. Does anyone make a thermometer that attaches to the outside of the liner and uses wires so on an insert a person could run wires from the flue to outside the surround where the temp guage can be seen ?

At the end of the day I'm going to stop using my start up air, and be more careful. I'll put a stove top thermometer on the exposed top if it's of value with my stove ? , and like Bholler suggests I'll remove the face plate for inspection. If everything looks normal I'll let it go and keep burning. If the liner looks different than before I'll dig deeper and post some pictures

Thank guys !

The liner will not look new. It will be purple/bronze colored. This is normal after use.