OWB not transfering heat into oil burner

[maple1]

That's not an overly big hx, a bigger one would help.

Can you post temp readings (accurate ones) at all the ins and outs of the HX. Both with and without the oil side flowing. Still sounds like you are not flowing enough through the wood loop.

 

[warno]

I could not agree more with what maple1 is saying. It still seems you aren't flowing enough gpm on the wood side.

The exposed lines can't hardly be the issue my entire garage loop is not insulated and it goes through 2 small WAHXs and over 40 feet of 1" pex and I'm barely getting a delta of 20 through that loop.

Also are you sure you have opposing flow through the FPHX? Hot wood boiler supply entering the same side as return to oil boiler.

When I ditched my 20 plate HX and went with a 90 plate to charge my storage everything changed for the better. I also redid my plumbing to reduce head loss but the bigger HX was a huge improvement. Like I said though even with your 20 plate you should be seeing better results.

 

[Mahoney86]

Here are the most recent numbers

System Off:
OWB Supply :173
OWB Return : 173

Oil Boiler in to HX : 142
Oil Boiler out of HX : 150

System On

OWB Supply : 174
OWB Return : 125

Oil Boiler in to HX : 147
Oil Boiler out of HX : 161

As far as the plumbing to the HX goes the cold water return from my baseboards goes in the bottom of the HX. The Return to my OWB goes into the bottom as well. OWB Supply goes into the top of the HX and the water sent back into the Oil boiler goes out the top

 

[maple1]

Looks like a flow imbalance there. Too slow on wood side. Either some air remaining, or circ too small. Suspect circ undersized. I would also likely use a much bigger HX.

 

[warno]

Definitely a lack of flow on the wood side. What circ are you running on the wood side?

 

[maple1]

Post 33 said Taco 007F5. Not sure if that has been changed. Getting rid of the small pipe would have reduced head but adding the FPHX would have added.

 

[maple1]

Also, I dont think that HX mounting position is recommended, as also mentioned, but not sure how it would affect things.

 

[warno]

Also, I dont think that HX mounting position is recommended, as also mentioned, but not sure how it would affect things.

Everything I've read you want your plates as vertical as possible if at all possible. With supply and returns top and bottom. I'm wondering if there's possibly air trapped in the plates on the boiler side and it's losing efficiency. I know the spaces between ther plates isn't much but it doesn't take much air to screw with things.

 

[warno]

I'm going to say you need to start questioning your circ on the boiler side. In your posting you said there's 75 feet of 1" pex. In my quick reread I think it said one way. So that's 150 feet of 1" pex total plus whatever you have inside the basement plus all your fittings. And pex elbows kill flow pretty good. But if @maple1 is right with your pump being a Taco 007 I don't think you have enough pump. The max head loss on that pump is only 10 ft of head. And I feel like there's more than that on your OWB side.

If you could take the time and write down a list of every fitting and foot of pipe on your OWB side we're might be able to help you figure out the head loss and see if it's over what your pump can handle.




Here's my example of a list of fittings. This is of my system. BV = ball valve, 90° is an elbow (ect.) If you write down a 90° pex elbow make a note of that because like I said they add alot to it.

 

[Roundgunner]

I keep my boiler on till 180 then only let it drop 5 to 175 before coming back on. I also have a lot of fire brick. The 5' differential might use more wood but my fire never goes out.

I wonder, if you are losing that much heat in the pipe maybe buy new well insulated ones run them on the surface and cover them with heybales until spring thaw.

 

[maple1]

He said he has Thermopex. Cant get much better. Of course, with low flow, some temp will be lost in the uninsulated sections.

 

[Mahoney86]

I would have to agree with everyone, I definitely believe it is a circulator issue at a minimum. Being that I just bought a new 007F5 pump and I still have the original 007F5 pump, would it be possible to maybe put the spare pump on the OWB return line? Just hate to spend another $250 on this darn thing when I have a brand new pump already

 

[maple1]

I would try that if I already had the circs.

 

[warno]

Definitely couldn't hurt if you have the hardware already.

 

[Mahoney86]

Took entirely too long but I finally decided last week, no sense in rigging up 2 pumps and fiddling around with everything so I placed an order for a new circ pump. I was recommended a Taco 009-F5. I can definitely tell this pump can handle more head and push more water then the little 007 pump.

I did fire everything up right after hooking the pump up this week after work on Monday. Fire got lit, it was 25* out so it took a maybe 1.5hrs to get the 43* water up to 150* before I opened up the valves to the HX inside. I still could not get a temp reading from my laser thermos hotter than 150* inside which is worse than then the 170 I was getting before. I am hoping this time around I simply just have air in the system from installing the new pump. I only bled the lines buy flowing water through my indoor purge valves a few times and it all seemed fine. I went to bed that night hearing my oil boiler running most of the night, though I was surprised to wake up to have the fire still going in the wood boiler, however the coal bed was basically nonexisting. I raked things up, loaded her up for the day and went to work. As I suspected, I got home from work 14 hours later and the fire completely went out and the firebox was still completely loaded with wood.

Tonight I will hook up the garden hose and try and push water through the lines from the house into the wood boiler.

 

[maple1]

Took entirely too long but I finally decided last week, no sense in rigging up 2 pumps and fiddling around with everything so I placed an order for a new circ pump. I was recommended a Taco 009-F5. I can definitely tell this pump can handle more head and push more water then the little 007 pump.

I did fire everything up right after hooking the pump up this week after work on Monday. Fire got lit, it was 25* out so it took a maybe 1.5hrs to get the 43* water up to 150* before I opened up the valves to the HX inside. I still could not get a temp reading from my laser thermos hotter than 150* inside which is worse than then the 170 I was getting before. I am hoping this time around I simply just have air in the system from installing the new pump. I only bled the lines buy flowing water through my indoor purge valves a few times and it all seemed fine. I went to bed that night hearing my oil boiler running most of the night, though I was surprised to wake up to have the fire still going in the wood boiler, however the coal bed was basically nonexisting. I raked things up, loaded her up for the day and went to work. As I suspected, I got home from work 14 hours later and the fire completely went out and the firebox was still completely loaded with wood.

Tonight I will hook up the garden hose and try and push water through the lines from the house into the wood boiler.

Well, you won't get hotter water in the house than what is in the wood boiler - which was 150? Unless you meant different than what you typed.

It would make things easier for getting air out, if you simply had a bleed spot to let some out (a ball valve T'd in?), at the high points in your piping & system. If the fire went out with a load of wood inside, that does sound like the heat wasn't going anywhere and it shut itself up. Which does sound like trapped air. As long as the pump was indeed running. And as long as the fire did get itself going to start with.

 

[stee6043]

Bugger. I'm still looking forward to you posting that you're running like a champ.

Fortunately, the coldest part of winter is still a few weeks away

 

[Mahoney86]

Sorry I should have clarified, when I took the 150* temp inside on the pex, the OWB was well over 190* at that point.

I believe the true "high point" of the system would be the wood boiler itself. I do have boiler drain valves added right before the supply and return at the HX. This is normally the spot where I try and bleed air as this is the highest point within the house.

The fire was definitely going, when I went outside at 430am before work I burned everything down from the night before and loaded her up about 3/4 full. At 830am when my wife left for work, she sent me a photo of the condensation coming out of the OWB chimney so the fire at least burned or smoldered until 830am when she left. So somewhere during the day the fire went out.

Im also thinking maybe my wood splits are too large, not allowing for the wood to burn down to form a nice coal bed. When I see pictures and videos of other OWB at reload, the coal beds are huge! One thing I notice is that it is usually difficult to keep a super hot temperature in my reaction chamber. I have heard the e-classics should be running well over 1000* in the reaction chamber, I recent haven't seen a temp in the reaction chamber over 8-900* and normally it hovers in the 650-800 range during heating. Then during normal operation I will see the reaction chamber go down into the 200* range and only up to 400 or so during the idle "purge" every 20 minutes

 

[maple1]

Sorry I should have clarified, when I took the 150* temp inside on the pex, the OWB was well over 190* at that point.

I believe the true "high point" of the system would be the wood boiler itself. I do have boiler drain valves added right before the supply and return at the HX. This is normally the spot where I try and bleed air as this is the highest point within the house.

The fire was definitely going, when I went outside at 430am before work I burned everything down from the night before and loaded her up about 3/4 full. At 830am when my wife left for work, she sent me a photo of the condensation coming out of the OWB chimney so the fire at least burned or smoldered until 830am when she left. So somewhere during the day the fire went out.

Im also thinking maybe my wood splits are too large, not allowing for the wood to burn down to form a nice coal bed. When I see pictures and videos of other OWB at reload, the coal beds are huge! One thing I notice is that it is usually difficult to keep a super hot temperature in my reaction chamber. I have heard the e-classics should be running well over 1000* in the reaction chamber, I recent haven't seen a temp in the reaction chamber over 8-900* and normally it hovers in the 650-800 range during heating. Then during normal operation I will see the reaction chamber go down into the 200* range and only up to 400 or so during the idle "purge" every 20 minutes

Your last mentions of reaction chamber temps suggests wood that isn't dried enough.

But if the OWB is maintaining 190, that is beside the point for now - that point being, getting that heat, into the house system. So better to focus on one thing at a time here to not cloud issues too much.

A system & piping layout can have more than one high point. Each one should have a way to get air out easy. Because they can all accumulate air into air locking pockets.

 

[maple1]

A reposting of new numbers similar to post 78 might help.

I also still think the 20 plate HX mentioned earlier would likely be too small to transfer much heat when it comes to heating a house. But without numbers....

 

[Mahoney86]

I will try giving the lines a solid purge tonight and will post temperature readings as I have done early to see how we are making out.

 

[TCaldwell]

Has the plate hx ever been cleaned?

 

[maple1]

Has the plate hx ever been cleaned?

I think its new? Came in somewhere in the middle of the thread? But it's not very big.

 

[Mahoney86]

Yes the flat plate is new

So got home from work and fired up the wood boiler and turned the heat up in the house

At 7:35pm here are the readings

OWB display - 183

OWB supply -171
OWB return -156

Oil in - 148
Oil out - 164

Temp gauge on oil boiler 160

 

[maple1]

Yes the flat plate is new

So got home from work and fired up the wood boiler and turned the heat up in the house

At 7:35pm here are the readings

OWB display - 183

OWB supply -171
OWB return -156

Oil in - 148
Oil out - 164

Temp gauge on oil boiler 160

That is an improvement.

I'd be most concerned about the 12 drop between OWB and OWB supply though? Are you sure the water leaving the OWB is 183 or close to it?