Own an old Defiant Encore - rebuild or buy new?

[rafsel]

Disclaimer: I'm new to the forum.

I bought the Defiant Encore in 1987. (I think it is a 0028). We use it sporadically - maybe 60 days/year at most. It was great for its first 10 years, but after that it started to get very finicky and eventually we had to stop using it with the damper closed.

A few years ago I took it apart and re-sealed everything that I thought needed to be re-sealed. The catalytic converter looked fine (never been replaced!) but the refractory assembly supporting the catalytic converter was in rough shape - it was broken in places - but I put everything together and closed it up. The external bolts are not possible to remove so I had to do all this by taking things apart from the inside.

I should add that the stove has not been mistreated and is in general in very good condition - all parts intact (except that white tower thing), no warping or cracking, only a couple of stuck bolts (the rear ones). In fact, from what I have seen posted on this site, I'd say that my stove looks brand-new in comparison. All the parts fit together properly and are accessible - modulo seized bolts. I can post pics if needed.

At this point I am ready to buy a new stove. So I talked to a local dealer who really didn't want to re-build the stove - said it would cost too much, but I think he just wanted to sell me a new one. He is trying to sell me a non-cat Encore. So I went on line and found some reviews from very dissatisfied people. I know that Vermont Castings has been bought by another company so I'm wondering if the quality of their stoves has suffered.

I also have talked to another dealer (doesn't sell Vermont Castings) who recommends a Jotul. The problem is that we really like the top-loading feature of the Encore and the Jotul is side and front loading. Also we'll need to change our hearth to accommodate the side-loading.

So, my questions are as follows:
1- is my stove worth re-building?
2- if so, how much work is it likely to be?
3- how does the new Encore compare with my model?
4- what is the general consensus on Jotul stoves?

Thanks for any help/advice.

Martin

 

[GVA]

ELK.......

 

[elkimmeg]

Clean the stove out shop vac it then place a 100 or larger light bulb in it in the dark walk around it and look for light leaks.
Of all Encore stoves the 0028 is the hardest to work onnot impossible but harder the refactory package is still available and plan on a new cat combustor then doing gaskets.
I think PB blast on the bolts and some heat may get them off. Are any side plates cracked or damaged?
We can help instruct you to rebuild that stove can you take pictures of the stove and fire box?


So, my questions are as follows:
1- is my stove worth re-building? That has to be determined but it seems you have a prime canidate
2- if so, how much work is it likely to be? again more info is needed such as the light test results and pictures wh
3- how does the new Encore compare with my model? the 2550 cat model is simmilar but easier to work on same preformance I own one
4- what is the general consensus on Jotul stoves? good quality stoves

There was a fire cat pacckage on Ebay for under $100 no bids I bookmarked the auction so that you can contact them
Where do you live there is a 2003 Encore used only 5 times with a buy now price of $900 about 30 to 45 minutes from me in RI. That would be a tremendeous deal less than 1/2 retail

I know what you mean once you have had top loading it hard to be satisfied with side loading Harman oakwood is top loading Quad has a top loader.

Many have bought the new non Cat Encores and love them. If your cat Encore worked fine then no reason to learn a new stove

 

[begreen]

For non-cat top-loaders, I'd also look at the Harman Oakwood and Quadrafire Isle Royale.

 

[rafsel]

Thanks for your help.

Clean the stove out shop vac it then place a 100 or larger light bulb in it in the dark walk around it and look for light leaks.

Will do and will report.

Of all Encore stoves the 0028 is the hardest to work onnot impossible but harder the refactory package is still available and plan on a new cat combustor then doing gaskets.

I replaced all the gaskets last year. (Don't know how good of a job I did since I have no experience with this). I also sealed the various sections with some kind of cast iron "glue", as instructed by someone....

I think PB blast on the bolts and some heat may get them off.

Excellent. I'm willing to give it a try, but I think that I don't absolutely need to do this until after the winter since the stuck bolts are only the ones that allow access to the cat converter from the rear.

Are any side plates cracked or damaged?

Nope. Nothing is cracked or damaged, except perhaps the thread for the damper tab.

We can help instruct you to rebuild that stove can you take pictures of the stove and fire box?

Great! I'll get some pictures.

So, my questions are as follows:
1- is my stove worth re-building? That has to be determined but it seems you have a prime canidate
2- if so, how much work is it likely to be? again more info is needed such as the light test results and pictures wh
3- how does the new Encore compare with my model? the 2550 cat model is simmilar but easier to work on same preformance I own one
4- what is the general consensus on Jotul stoves? good quality stoves

There was a fire cat pacckage on Ebay for under $100 no bids I bookmarked the auction so that you can contact them

How do I go about contacting them?

Where do you live there is a 2003 Encore used only 5 times with a buy now price of $900 about 30 to 45 minutes from me in RI. That would be a tremendeous deal less than 1/2 retail

We live in Eastern Ontario on Lake Ontario, about 2 hours from Watertown, New York. I'll be travelling to Western Massachusets in about a week, so I could pick up parts somewhere near my route (Watertown, Syracuse, Albany, the Berkshires). Also could go via Vermont/New Hampshire I suppose.

I know what you mean once you have had top loading it hard to be satisfied with side loading Harman oakwood is top loading Quad has a top loader.

Yes I think this is an important feature for me.

Many have bought the new non Cat Encores and love them. If your cat Encore worked fine then no reason to learn a new stove

So, I take it that the new Encores are not substantially better than the old ones in terms of performance and maintenance?


Thanks for your help. I'll get on the light test and photos and will post them shortly.

Martin

 

[rafsel]

I did the light test (without shop vac'ing the stove, unfortunately) and it was all dark, except for the front.

Here are the first 4 pictures...

 

[rafsel]

and three more (size limit reached) ...

 

[rafsel]

and the rest. Do these show enough to make an assessment?

Martin

 

[begreen]

Stove doesn't look all that bad Martin. The heat shielding and clearances to combustibles do look a bit suspect though. Glass needs cleaning too .

What do you mean by the stove is operating "finicky"?

 

[rafsel]

Well the flash makes it look worse than it actually is.

when it was installed it was all up to code: 24" to rear of stove, 20" in front; side clearances are 10". I know that I need to fix the 8" pipe since at 12" the heat shield should go all the way to the ceiling. I plan to fix that (or go to double wall pipe?).

 

[begreen]

So how is it misbehaving? On startup, on cat mode? dampering down?

 

[rafsel]

Basically, I'm not able to close the damper without stinking up the house.

What is the difference between "cat mode" and "dampering down"?

 

[begreen]

When was the last time the flue was totally cleaned out ? That would be step one. I'll wait for Elk to log in tomorrow, but it sounds like rebuilding the refactory assembly and getting a new cat (with lower combustion temps) may be worth a try. I would do it now. It won't take as long as you think and the season is still young.

Here's one of the cat sites. Reports are they fire off at about 300+ degrees.
http://www.stovecombustors.com/

 

[begreen]

top and front
http://www.vermontcastings.com/content/products/productdetails.cfm?id=169

 

[rafsel]

When was the last time the flue was totally cleaned out ? That would be step one. I'll wait for Elk to log in tomorrow, but it sounds like rebuilding the refactory assembly and getting a new cat (with lower combustion temps) may be worth a try. I would do it now. It won't take as long as you think and the season is still young.

Here's one of the cat sites. Reports are they fire off at about 300+ degrees.
http://www.stovecombustors.com/

Thanks.

How would I "totally clean out" the flue?

From your comment on the cat exhibiting a "fire off" temp at 300+ degrees, I assume that this is better since one would not need as hot a fire to close the damper and re-burn the exhaust? Do I have this right?

Do you know where to source the refractory assembly?

 

[elkimmeg]

The ash still in the stove will block off the seams where it could be leaking the first set of pictures third one in from the left a side view the rust around the seam line may indicate refractory joint needs to be cualked If you can get that cleaned up Vac out then do a light test one acn also use a strong bright flash light and aim it at all the seams including the top griddle gasket. It is possible to recaulk joints without fully dissesembly. I agree that stove is a prime canidate for rebuilding,

with the refactory package gone secondary burning and dampering is useless. chances are the secondary air passages are blocked and that explains why
the smoke backs up.

If you were able to disconnets it roll it out into a garage and use a blow gun and compressed air s with a shop vac you could really examine the joints I also use a small wire brush to get the stuborn ash out od the seams and then shop vac it again. When blowing it out wear a dust protection for breathing and do it outside in the process it will expose leaking joints.

To reaslly get at the entire interior of the stove one shoulf remove the top Usually held on by 4 connecting rods bolted to the bottom this will make it eask to work on the damper assembly
and access to caulk all seams from inside. When done with the refoctory package, damper working new gasket on the damper plate and new cat combustor this stove will operate as new
you will re-discoved how it is susposed to opperate

yess it is true that to replacement off marker than OEM light off at 380 degrees instead of the OEM 500 degrees they also ccontinue firing all the way down to 380 the #80 is the internal fire box temps not stove top. I will supply the link to the Refractory package that did not sell on Ebay last week. Total time if the bolts come off including top removal and cleaning 3 hours spent in the graage more time for re essembly back to you vent but what an oppertunity to wire brush up the griddle and re paint that stove to looks new.

Baring any unforseen problems Under $400 parts if the guy on Ebay is willing to sell the refactory package fot the $89 under $300 with stove combustor Cat smoe gaskets and cement and refactory caulk. you might need some damper parts if it got warped.

I will add to this post in edit mode the Ebay link to the refactory package


Vermont Castings Encore Catalytic Combustor Housing
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...MEWA:IT&viewitem=&item=250052183719&rd=1&rd=1

members ordered parts from here
http://www.discountstove.com/

If you do not have a manual then here is a link f to download one it will tell you how to take the combustor out
http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/Defiant_Vig_Res_Intre_Pre88-0226.pdf

 

[rafsel]

Thanks for all the great information. You have given me the confidence to give re-building the stove a go. Hope this doesn't turn out to be a major production!

I have a bunch of questions, of course.

1- I can easily disconnect the stove and move it to my garage/shop where I have compressed air, tools and in general a better working environment. But the stove weighs more than 400 pounds! How do people manage this? Do I take it apart and move it in pieces?

2- About 2 years ago, I pulled the major pieces apart and re-cemented them together (top, sides, etc.). I may not have done a perfect job but I suppose I can test via the light method you suggested. But if I need to disassemble the stove, how do I break the seal that I created when I cemented it together?

3- Even though I did a half-baked (no pun intended) re-build a couple of years ago, I think it would be a good idea to tear everything down and do it right just to make sure. I am assuming this since I need to change the refractory and will therefore have a lot of the stove apart?

4- I am trying to contact the seller of the refractory package. And I am also trying to source the parts locally, though they are likely to be much more expensive. One thing is that the ebay seller had a part number for the refractory package different than what Discount's exploded diagram had: ebay seller: 1602510, Discount Stove: 5004600. I wonder if I have identified my stove model, etc. properly. How do I make sure that I am buying the correct parts?

5- Do you recommend the lower temp catalyst, or is it better to go with one from Vermont Castings?

6- Is it possible to get a "repair" or workshop manual for this stove?

7- Any other general advice.

Thanks very, very much again!

 

[begreen]

Hey Martin, morning and back online. I can't add much to Elk's guidance. He's the word on these stoves. By thorough flue cleaning I meant a good brush out and if there is a screen on the cap, a good cleaning there. But I'm going with Elk on this one. Sounds like it may have ash choked secondaries due to leaky refactory assembly. Plan on a full day for the rebuild and take your time. If it takes 4 hrs. then you'll have time for a beer and rest. It's a great feeling to restore something of value and bring it back to life. With a complete rebuild and new, lower temp cat, the stove may end up being better than new.

Judging by reports from the field the cats I posted the link for are doing very well. Elk can add his experiences when he gets back.

 

[elkimmeg]

One year using the replacement cats and they work as advertised. What gets lost with use, is declining stove effeciencies with age.
Just as we change oil filter and spark plugs to keep our cars running right, the same care has to go into all stoves. They should be cleaned. The #1 culprit is fly ash.
It leaves deposits in the intake and exhaust routes Creating blockages. If one were to remove the easy parts like bottoms and shop vac their stoves out top preformance would continue for many years. On Cat stoves or any secondary burn chamber stoves. The air passages have to be cleaned out. That soft refactory package has a thermoatic probe in there. If fly ash fill ups around it it will not record the thems properly and introduce the correct secondary air. What I do is remove the cat combustor shop vack and shopvac blow it out . If really dirty I used pipe cleaners. So far I have not had to place it is boiling water and vinager to clean mine. I then take a small soft flexible hose ta duct tape it to my shop vac and clean out the bottom of the refactory chamber of all ash. I examine the probe and used fine steel wool to clean it off if necessary. All this can be done in less that 20 minutes when I am doing this I usually clean the chimney
I usually do this at the end of the heating season recheck things before the begining and also at mid season.. Part of this is knowing how your stove is working one can judge the wood dryness in the ash accumulations, both in the stove and chimney. Power brown is a good color to see. I did the same with My resolute acclaim non cat as with my Cat Encore
Clean then up. You really cannot blow them out in the house. so a vac with a micro filter is best. Its amazing the difference how a cleaned stove runs. VC once told be the #1 reason for poor preformance in used stoves was the lack of cleaning. But this is true in all stoves some more so than others