Progress Hybrid draft control tip

[mliiiwit]

I've been burning my stove for 1 week now and just tonight learned something on the draft control. Before tonight, I had closed my draft until I felt moderate resistance to rotation and assumed that was "closed". Every time I was frustrated with continued primary and secondary flames and felt the draft control was less than optimal and that I wasn't achieving a high efficiency "cat" burn. Tonight, after getting the stove to min cat engage temp from a cold start, I quickly added 1 6" dia round and a med split of pecan at full draft but without disengaging the cat. I immediately closed the draft and I put a little more force in the closing direction and the draft audibly protested a bit (a metallic "grunch") but rotated a bit further. All flame in the firebox extinguished almost immediately. A couple hours later now and the stove is cruising on the cat at 450 top temp and there has been NO flame in the firebox. Shining a flashlight into the firebox, I can see the round and split I added last and see just some charring on the round (beneath the split) and the split looks unaffected. I believe I've finally got my stove into the highest efficiency mode to date. If your firebox doesn't go black almost immediately, try rotating your draft control a little more towards closed (listen for the metallic "grunch") and see what happens.

As a side note, how long is it taking PH owners to get the stovetop temps to "cat burn range" from a cold start? My experience has been a couple of hours and probably 20-25 lbs of wood (pecan seasoned 2 years) with a wide open draft. Once up to temp, the stove maintains it well,, but it seems it takes a lot of wood at a high burn rate to get there. Way longer than the 10 to 15 minutes WS states in the manual. Any tips on reducing this heat up time are much appreciated.

 

[rideau]

Don't really know where to start.My problem with the PH was getting secondary burn within about ten minutes and having too much of a secondary burn going on to engage the cat. Had to learn to engage cat sooner to avoid secondary burn. I think you must be burning wet wood and losing a lot of energy burning off water. Two hours! Can't even imagine that. Ten minutes tops 15 with me. First thing I would do is get some really dry wood. If you don't have a moisture meter and don't know anyone who does, take a piece of your wood to your local hardware and get them to show you on your wood how moisture meter works.
That will give you a reading. Simle test...does your wood crack when hit (dry) or thump/thud (wet0. Drive a wedge into the wood.. If you see any moisture where it enters, wood very wet. Have you checked your draft? I suppose a really poor draft could result in a long time to get stove going..but 2 hours! i really think it has to be the wood. Am assuming you load (from cold start) with some firestarter (paper, birchbark, cedar starter or pine fatwood, then possibly branches, then small splits, then larger splits, have bypass and draft all the way open, light the firestarter with a match, close the door and leave the draft all the way open until you get flames? From a warm start, damper and bypass all the way open, some splits tossed in, door closed, and you should have flames almost as soon as you close the door. Both cases, just a few minutes (10 or 15) until hot enough to engage the combuster. If your wood IS dry, AND y ou are doing the above, then call Woodstock and go over in detail what you are doing and what you are experiencing . Something isn't right. These stoves light off remarkable easily and quickly. If you have a neighbor who burns wood, explain your problem and ask if you can exchange a couple of pieces of your (maybe wet) for his (likely dry) firewood, which would be an easy way to see if it's the wood.

 

[ddddddden]

You'll probably get up to temp more quickly if you start closing the draft sooner. . .something like 50% open as soon as the flames get rollin', then maybe 25-30% open 10 minutes later. Burning wide open looks impresive, but sends more heat up the flue. If you have to keep it wide open to get the wood to burn well, then the wood is not dry enough. My stove is not a PH, but I find it helps a lot to let air flow under the load, either by elevating the load on a couple of small splits placed N-S, like andirons, or by letting the ash bed get deep and scooping out a pit in the center. Basically the "tunnel of love" technique but without dog house air shooting through it. I think the benefit is that it gets the wood at the bottom and back involved sooner, rather than later.

 

[mliiiwit]

The burn characteristics of the wood are all the moisture meter that is needed. When I reload on a good bed of coals, by the time I get the door closed and step around to the front the wood has ignited and will be fully engulfed within a minute if I don't close the draft. Alternatively, I can load under the same conditions and immediately close the draft and snuff the initial flame and have the cat take off, so I also do not suspect any issues with the cat. I learned about green and wet wood when I was a kid from my Dad's short-lived attempt at burning green wood. My wood is not a factor other than possibly pecan btu content.

Closing the draft early is counter-productive with a cold stove as the early stages of the fire do much better with the door closed but unlatched.

I do load just a couple of small splits and kindling when starting from cold so maybe I'm just not getting enough fuel burning early enough. This stove is a LOT more mass than what I'm familiar with so it makes sense that it will take a lot more fuel to get it up to temp, but I'm still skeptical of a 10 minute cold to cat temps burn time. I also suspect that warm weather is also affecting draft though there is a good draw on a cold start and we get no smoke out of the stove. Even once when I forgot to bypass and open the draft before reloading we had no smoke spill- that really surprised me when I realized what I'd done.

I'll try cold starts with larger loads to see if that helps significantly.

 

[HollowHill]

Don't really know where to start.My problem with the PH was getting secondary burn within about ten minutes and having too much of a secondary burn going on to engage the cat.

Rideau, not sure I understand this statement. Is there some reason that the cat shouldn't be engaged when the secondaries are going well?

 

[Waulie]

The burn characteristics of the wood are all the moisture meter that is needed. When I reload on a good bed of coals, by the time I get the door closed and step around to the front the wood has ignited and will be fully engulfed within a minute if I don't close the draft. Alternatively, I can load under the same conditions and immediately close the draft and snuff the initial flame and have the cat take off, so I also do not suspect any issues with the cat. I learned about green and wet wood when I was a kid from my Dad's short-lived attempt at burning green wood. My wood is not a factor other than possibly pecan btu content.

Closing the draft early is counter-productive with a cold stove as the early stages of the fire do much better with the door closed but unlatched.

I do load just a couple of small splits and kindling when starting from cold so maybe I'm just not getting enough fuel burning early enough. This stove is a LOT more mass than what I'm familiar with so it makes sense that it will take a lot more fuel to get it up to temp, but I'm still skeptical of a 10 minute cold to cat temps burn time. I also suspect that warm weather is also affecting draft though there is a good draw on a cold start and we get no smoke out of the stove. Even once when I forgot to bypass and open the draft before reloading we had no smoke spill- that really surprised me when I realized what I'd done.

I'll try cold starts with larger loads to see if that helps significantly.

If your wood is really taking off that fast, there is simply no way it should take two hours to warm the stove to cat temps. Closing the draft a bit to get the stove up to temp might seem counter-productive, but it's not. If your wood is burning well closing the draft simply allows more heat to stay in the stove rather than going up the flue. Notching the draft down in steps while keeping good, active flames will be the fastest way to get the stove up to temp.

 

[Waulie]

Also, the draft control can stick a bit. My dad's did at first, but his now works perfectly. Getting that dark firebox, all cat burn is really a matter of timing. Sometimes I get it like that, othertimes I get alternating secondaries with the cat burning the rest. Typically, it can be tough to totally kill the secondaries on a full load. But, just last night I had a full load and timed it just right. Completely dark firebox and stove top temps climbed to 580.

 

[WarmInIowa]

RoundOak16, We are most likely have similar weather, and my draft has been reduced by the warm weather and rain. I would say it took my about 25 minutes from a cold stove to engaging the cat this weekend. My suggestion would be to load the stove up more as you considered in your post above, during your light off. The other suggestion with putting a few pieces n/s with space in between is good. I can put 3 or 4 short pieces of very dry wood on the bottom, then stack some small to mid sized splits on top of those with kindling on top of that then a firestarter, bark, pinecones, or whatever you use that lights easily on the top and do a top down burn. The advantage is it lights easily, and it gets the larger pieces of wood burning quickly to heat up the stove. This is my favorite way to start a fire and it works great in the progress because of the larger firebox allows you to put a decent amount of wood in during your start-up fire.

 

[fire_man]

The burn characteristics of the wood are all the moisture meter that is needed. When I reload on a good bed of coals, by the time I get the door closed and step around to the front the wood has ignited and will be fully engulfed within a minute if I don't close the draft. Alternatively, I can load under the same conditions and immediately close the draft and snuff the initial flame and have the cat take off, so I also do not suspect any issues with the cat. I learned about green and wet wood when I was a kid from my Dad's short-lived attempt at burning green wood. My wood is not a factor other than possibly pecan btu content.

Closing the draft early is counter-productive with a cold stove as the early stages of the fire do much better with the door closed but unlatched.

I do load just a couple of small splits and kindling when starting from cold so maybe I'm just not getting enough fuel burning early enough. This stove is a LOT more mass than what I'm familiar with so it makes sense that it will take a lot more fuel to get it up to temp, but I'm still skeptical of a 10 minute cold to cat temps burn time. I also suspect that warm weather is also affecting draft though there is a good draw on a cold start and we get no smoke out of the stove. Even once when I forgot to bypass and open the draft before reloading we had no smoke spill- that really surprised me when I realized what I'd done.
I'll try cold starts with larger loads to see if that helps significantly.

Roundoak16: What is your chimney setup? Is it an insulated SS liner? Reason I ask is some folks (including me) get smoke spillage from the door on reload. I have a 20' non-insulated SS liner.

 

[rideau]

HollowHill, I mis-wrote. What I hould have written: When I let the stove get hot enough to get a really active secondary burn before engaging the cat, I have trouble stopping the secondary burn and burning ONLY slow cat. Thanks for calling me on that.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

When starting a cold stove, indeed if one leaves the draft full open then there is much heat loss up the chimney. I recall going over this with several Fireview owners when they were stating it took well over an hour to get the stove up to temperature. Get the wood burning nicely and then close at least half way. Then the stove and stone will heat up much quicker. If the fire gets a bit too much, just turn the draft down a little bit more but usually 50% gets good results.

 

[mliiiwit]

When starting a cold stove, indeed if one leaves the draft full open then there is much heat loss up the chimney. I recall going over this with several Fireview owners when they were stating it took well over an hour to get the stove up to temperature. Get the wood burning nicely and then close at least half way. Then the stove and stone will heat up much quicker. If the fire gets a bit too much, just turn the draft down a little bit more but usually 50% gets good results.

I'm using 2 magnetic thermometers, one on the top and one on the pipe. The pipe thermo is staying colder than the top thermo during cold starts. If I were losing a lot of heat up the stack due to the draft being open, wouldn't this show up on the pipe thermo? I've swapped thermometers and also set them side by side to compare and they're close. Also, once the stove does get up to temp, the pipe thermo comes up too but levels off between 250 and 300 while I've had the top up over 500. I've even put my hand on the pipe after quite a while and it's still cool enough to hold, with it being cooler with height.

I think I simply have not realized just how much heat the stone can absorb before it conducts to the outer surface. I'll load it up next time I cold start. It's in the 50s here today and forecast is for mid 30s tonight, so not sure we'll have a fire. I'll let ya'll know what happens. Thanks to everybody for your suggestions.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

When you are starting with a cold stove, it still takes the chimney a long time to show all that heat. Also remember with a full draft you are sending the hot stuff up through there quite fast. Slow it down a bit. We too use 2 thermometers the same as you do and there is a huge difference in that flue thermometer when reloading vs. cold starts. Typically on a cold start I don't pay much attention to the flue temperature until the stove top gets up to temperature or close to it. By then the flue is usually showing around 350-400. If it is too low, the draft then could be opened a bit more to raise that flue temperature.

You are right. That stone can take a lot of heat to get it to temperature! That is actually one of the good points because although it takes a bit longer to heat up, it also takes a lot longer to cool down.

You are fortunate to have 50 degrees and I wish we had it too. Today was in the 30's and we had quite a bit of snow in the air, especially this morning but it was warm enough that it mostly melted as it hit the ground.

When I got home from the hospital the stove was pretty cool. I put in 4 splits and soon the stove top was at 620 degrees. It did not take long for the house to warm up! lol

 

[mliiiwit]

Roundoak16: What is your chimney setup? Is it an insulated SS liner? Reason I ask is some folks (including me) get smoke spillage from the door on reload. I have a 20' non-insulated SS liner.

I don't have a masonry chimney. Mine is Selkirk super vent straight up through the roof. I have not had any problem with smoke spillage or back draft.

 

[Waulie]

pipe thermo is staying colder than the top thermo during cold starts. If I were losing a lot of heat up the stack due to the draft being open, wouldn’t this show up on the pipe thermo?

The Progress does a good job of not sending too much ehat up the flue even with the draft full open because of the winding exhaust path and heat echanger fins. The question of how to heat the stove the fastest is not how the flue temps look compared to the stove top temps, but how the flue temps look with the draft full open versus how they look with the draft half closed (or so). As long as your fire is going well, it's just physics that closing the draft some will keep more heat in the stove.

 

[fire_man]

I have a feeling that the Progress requires a better insulated flue than most stoves, including the Fireview. I have noticed surprising low flue temps on this stove, even when a raging fire is burning when the cat is bypassed. This has to make the draft slower, and may explain my smoke spillage issue on reloads. With the Fireview, the flames shot straight up the flue and got that pipe hot fast, and I had not spillage.

 

[Waulie]

I think you're right about that. Of course, it only makes sense. More efficient = less heat up the flue. I don't have any smoke spillage issues with my 7X7 clay lined, 25 foot chimney. But, it is an interior chimney.

 

[rideau]

Mine is interior double wall also and I too have had no problem with smoke spillage...nor (so far) have I had a problem with the cat.

 

[mliiiwit]

pipe thermo is staying colder than the top thermo during cold starts. If I were losing a lot of heat up the stack due to the draft being open, wouldn’t this show up on the pipe thermo?

The Progress does a good job of not sending too much ehat up the flue even with the draft full open because of the winding exhaust path and heat echanger fins. The question of how to heat the stove the fastest is not how the flue temps look compared to the stove top temps, but how the flue temps look with the draft full open versus how they look with the draft half closed (or so). As long as your fire is going well, it's just physics that closing the draft some will keep more heat in the stove.

Waulie - I don't agree with the last sentence of your post unless the stove is in cat mode or is cooling from a dying fire. Only one thing is going to warm the stove to cat temps and that is the chemical reaction going on inside of it, which is only flame in the firebox until things are hot enough for the fire to move upstairs. The product of that reaction is known science and less draft = less oxygen = less fire = less heat. Even with the draft full open, small early stage fires are noticeably stifled when I latch the loading door, which suggests there is excessive resistance to flow through the draft, to the fire and out the chimney. Yet the stove seems to perform normally once up to cat temps which would suggest no abnormal restriction to draft flow in that mode. Maybe my issue is that I have a good enough draft to prevent smoke spillage but that is still poor enough with a cold circuit to pull enough air into the stove for the fire to develop quickly. I hope to try another cold start tonight with a large load of small splits and will post the results.

 

[Flamestead]

I've also have no smoke spillage, but do have a tall (32'), insulated flex liner. I did get some smoke on a reload once when I was too slow and there was a hot bed of coals - I made a second trip to the woodbox with the door left open, and had some smoke before getting the door closed.

The stove will easily go from cold to 250/300 within 20 minutes if given the chance (I've only done a few cold starts, and tend to bring it up more slowly on purpose).

I have noticed that the stove "talks" a lot more than my previous stove did as it changes temp, probably because there are so many individual pieces and multiple materials.

 

[fire_man]

One thing is for sure, I plan on getting this exterior 6" SS liner insulated this Summer. I get noticeable smoke spillage with an open door, especially in warmer temps. The flue temp is much lower than when I had the Fireview, and I never had smoke spillage.

 

[mliiiwit]

Tonight I re-lit with a top temp of 100 and some small coals even though it had been 24 hrs since I'd fueled - but it was sunny and over 70 here today and in low 50s now. I laid 2 5" rounds east-west with a gap between them and laid the kindling in the gap. Then I stacked very small splits in alternating N-S and E-W layers up to just below the baffle. I lit the kindling at the door end and left the door open for the first 5 minutes, had secondaries by 10 minutes and full cat light off within a minute of engagement at 15 minutes into the burn. I believe I'm over the hump on the cold-start learning curve. Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

 

[Waulie]

Good to hear, Roundoak!

Regarding the draft position, I was talking about before the cat is engaged. I was just refering to getting the stove top to the appropriate temp to close the bypass (250). I do think with the Progress, it probably makes less of a difference than other stoves if the draft is full open or half closed simply because it does such a good job of extracting heat from flue gases regardless. I definately do notice faster heating of the stove top by notching down the draft during warm up, though.

Interestingly, you'll find the common recommendation here if your stove temps start to redline is to open the draft (or even the door) to let the heat out of the stove and up the flue. I've never had to try that myself, though. ;-)