Received bid for new stove
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Tegbert
Feeling the Heat
Not to derail the thread but I got a quote for a 3 zone Lennox mini split at almost 14 grand. I don't feel that my install is a difficult one and the installer didn't seem to think so either so I was shocked at that price. With a pud incentive at about $1500 it just doesn't seem worth it to install them and the only reason I want them is for air conditioning in the summer and to get rid of the baseboards since our stove provides all of our heating needs.
Are those prices you quoted your cost or customer cost plus labor and such?
Lopi Rockport
That's my cost, not including tax, markup, other install materials or labor. They're probably discounted more for people that buy a lot of them. I'm an electrical contractor, so the hvac stuff is more a once in a while thing. I installed two separate 12k daikin A/C only units upstairs in my house. There was a significant savings on buying separate systems(two condensers and two indoor units) over one multi-zone condenser and two indoor units. I think the pricing evens up somewhat when you get up to 3 or more indoor units, and most people don't want a bunch condensers hanging all over their house.
Also, 14k seems a bit outrageous if the installation isn't something ridiculously difficult and time consuming, and even then it's high. For Daikin equipment a 36k multizone condenser runs around $2,000, and the indoor heads are $300-500. Figure another $1,000 on the higher side for copper line sets, cable and incidentals, and your up to $4,500 in materials. I'll come drill some holes in your walls, install a disconnect, and flare some copper for $10,000 in labor. I could take month and still do alright. Lennox might cost a lot more for some reason, but I can't imagine it being that far out.
Here's his answer as to what I would need to do to avoid voiding the Blaze King warranty:
As far as the warranty goes, we would need to install all new vent pipe up and out the roof which will add about $1,500 to the quote as the all fuel pipe and fittings on the roof are expensive. I don’t know any other ways around it unless you were to apply for the warranty and claim that the venting is new, which more than half of it will be. I don’t see the existing venting being an issue as it looks to be venting properly and in good condition, nor I don’t think you need to be concerned about it being a fire hazard.
And this is an approved Blaze King dealer!
As far as the warranty goes, we would need to install all new vent pipe up and out the roof which will add about $1,500 to the quote as the all fuel pipe and fittings on the roof are expensive. I don’t know any other ways around it unless you were to apply for the warranty and claim that the venting is new, which more than half of it will be. I don’t see the existing venting being an issue as it looks to be venting properly and in good condition, nor I don’t think you need to be concerned about it being a fire hazard.
And this is an approved Blaze King dealer!
jatoxico
Minister of Fire
Trying to see their point of view I suppose (I guess) I could (maybe) see if they wanted to add (a small) inspection fee to assure everything was to spec and in good shape. Instead they say the existing vent pipe is in good shape but will still void the warranty, makes perfect sense.
Really curious how most stove dealers get into the business. Few seem to have any real knowledge or often even a clue. Maybe BKVP will wander by and explain.
Really curious how most stove dealers get into the business. Few seem to have any real knowledge or often even a clue. Maybe BKVP will wander by and explain.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
No one, not even an authorized dealer can modify or void our product warranties. They can however write their own labor warranty policies. I might suggest asking the dealer for that point of clarification. And of course I am happy to drop a dime and call the dealer myself.
On another side note, I will be in Fairbanks this weekend, Anchorage the following weekend and in Dublin for most of April. Please be patient if I do not respond to posts ASAP. Someone send me a pm and I will respond sooner. Beer anyone in AK?
In his e-mail messages to me he said connecting to the existing pipe will void the manufacturers' warranty. To be clear, the dealer wasn't saying they would void the warranty, he said the manufacturers' warranty would be void unless connected to all new stove pipe/flue.
When I asked him what I would need to do to retain the Blaze King manufacturers warranty, this was his e-mail response (in it's entirety minus the company logo):
Mike,
I have attached the revised quote for the installation of the Blaze King Chinook30 freestanding stove, I have optioned the Red Pearl panels, removed the ash drawer and electrical cost, sorry I did not provide the correct information on the first proposal.
As far as the warranty goes, we would need to install all new vent pipe up and out the roof which will add about $1,500 to the quote as the all fuel pipe and fittings on the roof are expensive. I don’t know any other ways around it unless you were to apply for the warranty and claim that the venting is new, which more than half of it will be. I don’t see the existing venting being an issue as it looks to be venting properly and in good condition, nor I don’t think you need to be concerned about it being a fire hazard.
Yes, he actually implied that I could lie about the install to retain the manufacturers' warranty.
Before I made the 3 1/2 hour round trip to meet the Blaze King dealer at my ski cabin to get the install bid, he gave no indication that they wouldn't actually install it or that they wouldn't connect to an existing flue. Now they tell me the manufacturers' warranty will only be valid if I pay them approx. $1500 more to replace the insulated portion of the existing flue even though he doesn't see any issues with it (other than it's already there).
What I don't understand is why he calls it a "quote for the installation of the Blaze King Chinook30" when it's clearly only for the delivery and assembly. And why is the price over $4000 (before tax)? That's the price without optional red sides, ash drawer or any flue materials (only option is the fan kit). That seems high considering they will only deliver and assemble it.
I appreciate your offer of intervention but I would prefer if you wait until he responds. I've asked him if he has confirmed with Blaze King that connecting to existing flues void the warranty and/or where this is documented.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
It looks like this one got ironed out, not sure how the wrinkle formed in the first place! Here is the response to my question:
I just got off the phone with a BlazeKing customer service rep and she said as long as the existing stove pipe is approved with local codes and regulations, is compatible with the Chinook 30 and in good condition, then there won’t be any issues with the warranty. And I also read through the manual and couldn’t find anything to tell me otherwise. Sorry for the incorrect information and thank you for leading me to that research, as I have learned something new today. With that said, I don’t see anything wrong with the current all fuel pipe on the roof and you already mentioned replacing the black double wall venting on the interior, which is figured on the quote.
But this wrinkle caused me to get a second bid so we'll see how that goes. Thanks BKVP for your offer of assistance.
It sounds like the dealer is throwing out the voided warranty line to drum up extra business for themselves...
BKVP
Minister of Fire
You are quite welcome. However, not knowing which dealer you are working with, I think he or she may have read that type of disclaimer in perhaps another manufacturers policies or manuals. It truly could be something as innocent as that for an explanation. I try to see the good in mistakes.
When I don't have enough information to make a judgement, I don't make the judgement. However, are there other woodstove manufacturers that have such a policy? Because that would severely crimp sales of replacement stoves!
I'm still waiting for both bidders to provide complete bids before I select one. Last time I checked double wall stove pipe was not a basic commodity and varies considerably in price and quality. Yet neither bidder felt it was necessary to specify which brand/type of double wall pipe they will be installing even though I requested one of the bidders to specify the brand. I guess if they don't specify I could assume they use the cheapest stuff available but I don't like to assume.
I think I've heard before you're not supposed to reuse a flue if you change between certain fuels. Could be wrong, but something about switching between oil and gas, or wood or something. Maybe that's what he was thinking of?
I cant say that there are none but I have been doing this quite a while and have never heard of such a policy
No you just need a full inspection if you are switching fuel. And there are some chimneys that are suitable for come fuels and not others but as long as it is suitable and in good condition you can switch between fuels.
This bidding process is on-going due to days between e-mail responses and incomplete bids. But my current stove is functioning and the best of the heating season is past so I guess there is no hurry. At least my new Daikin 12K mini-split is installed. These things are great and will save tons of wood in the shoulder seasons (which is when they hit their highest efficiency anyway). Mini-splits and woodstoves go together like peas in a pod! At least for those who have no access to inexpensive natural gas.
But this bidding process has been extremely frustrating for me with all the issues mentioned earlier in this thread. Finally both bidders have specified what kind of double wall stove pipe their bids include for the 13' from stove to ceiling. However, the Metalbestos double wall pipe specified by the original bidder caused me to do 2 hours of research and I'm still confused. As far as I can tell, "Metalbestos" is a trademarked brand name for Selkirk's insulated SS class A chimney pipe. While Selkirk does manufacture two lines of double wall stove pipe (DCC and DSP), neither appear to be branded "Metalbestos". I had figured when I asked the original bidder to specify the specific pipe being bid, he would provide me with that without having to ask again! Actually, I did need to ask again after not receiving a response for 6 days. And now it appears I need to ask yet again because his answer makes no sense to me even after spending hours researching the matter.
Can any of you more knowledgeable members help me understand why Selkirk offers two lines of double wall stove pipe and what the differences are? So far I've gathered this:
DCC and DSP
both double wall (SS on inside)
both 6" clearance to combustibles
priced quite similarly
DCC
tested and certified to meet two different standards
reportedly more uniform appearance with cleaner lines.
reportedly more durable paint
smooth pipe joints look more secure and more air-tight
DSP
no listed standards
reportedly less durable paint
less smooth appearance at the joints
fluted (or corrugated) pipe joints look less air-tight.
The DCC looks superior but I was surprised how similar the pricing was in the wholesale price list I found on-line. Some components of the DSP line actually cost more. Because the Chinook 30 has such a modern design aesthetic, I think a minimalistic looking stove pipe with clean lines will complement the overall look. But I'm also interested in why Selkirk offers two lines of double wall pipe when they are at similar price points.
The second bidder had specified double wall pipe by Security. When I Googled it I was surprised at it's vented appearance. In hindsight I should have specified non-vented, I can't get past the look of the ugly oblong open vents visible throughout the room. The manufacturer touts the additional heat supplied to the room however, the entire point of going double wall was to retain as much flue heat as possible for low burns. And I can't get past the aesthetic. So I've asked him to provide a bid with non-vented double wall pipe.
Is there a brand of non-vented pipe that stands above the rest? I like value but I am not very price conscious if it comes with better quality. In order of importance:
joint design that seals tight
good quality control and design (for example the extendable section should be designed to minimize air intrusion)
clean modern appearance (joints don't stand out)
quality paint
price (least important)
But this bidding process has been extremely frustrating for me with all the issues mentioned earlier in this thread. Finally both bidders have specified what kind of double wall stove pipe their bids include for the 13' from stove to ceiling. However, the Metalbestos double wall pipe specified by the original bidder caused me to do 2 hours of research and I'm still confused. As far as I can tell, "Metalbestos" is a trademarked brand name for Selkirk's insulated SS class A chimney pipe. While Selkirk does manufacture two lines of double wall stove pipe (DCC and DSP), neither appear to be branded "Metalbestos". I had figured when I asked the original bidder to specify the specific pipe being bid, he would provide me with that without having to ask again! Actually, I did need to ask again after not receiving a response for 6 days. And now it appears I need to ask yet again because his answer makes no sense to me even after spending hours researching the matter.
Can any of you more knowledgeable members help me understand why Selkirk offers two lines of double wall stove pipe and what the differences are? So far I've gathered this:
DCC and DSP
both double wall (SS on inside)
both 6" clearance to combustibles
priced quite similarly
DCC
tested and certified to meet two different standards
reportedly more uniform appearance with cleaner lines.
reportedly more durable paint
smooth pipe joints look more secure and more air-tight
DSP
no listed standards
reportedly less durable paint
less smooth appearance at the joints
fluted (or corrugated) pipe joints look less air-tight.
The DCC looks superior but I was surprised how similar the pricing was in the wholesale price list I found on-line. Some components of the DSP line actually cost more. Because the Chinook 30 has such a modern design aesthetic, I think a minimalistic looking stove pipe with clean lines will complement the overall look. But I'm also interested in why Selkirk offers two lines of double wall pipe when they are at similar price points.
The second bidder had specified double wall pipe by Security. When I Googled it I was surprised at it's vented appearance. In hindsight I should have specified non-vented, I can't get past the look of the ugly oblong open vents visible throughout the room. The manufacturer touts the additional heat supplied to the room however, the entire point of going double wall was to retain as much flue heat as possible for low burns. And I can't get past the aesthetic. So I've asked him to provide a bid with non-vented double wall pipe.
Is there a brand of non-vented pipe that stands above the rest? I like value but I am not very price conscious if it comes with better quality. In order of importance:
joint design that seals tight
good quality control and design (for example the extendable section should be designed to minimize air intrusion)
clean modern appearance (joints don't stand out)
quality paint
price (least important)
ventis is very good pipe that is all we use. It is non vented and has welded seams nor crimped ones like the cheaper stuff
Is the inner wall stainless steel? I can't find Ventis mentioning what the material is other than "steel".
Thanks, I couldn't find that in company literature. I guess their strong suit is not marketing!
They only market to professionals. Until recently they only sold to pros. And they market to us very well
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