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replacement engine for a splitter

Post in 'The Gear' started by michaelthomas, Apr 20, 2006.

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  1. michaelthomas

    michaelthomas New Member

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    I have a homemade splitter with some sort of 10 hp engine on it. The engine quite on me while using it and hasn't had spark since. The small engine repair guy tested the ignition system and feels that it is the coil that is bad. Unfortunately this engine is probably 30 years old and the engine #s don't match up with any currently available parts. So after taking this engine to 3 places and getting the same shoulder shrug I decided to just get a new engine. I am looking for some advice on size and type. My splitter has a 30" cylinder with a 3" bore and a Vickers v20 pump that is rated at 13 gpm at 3600 rpm. I am replacing an old horizontal shaft 10 hp engine with a 1" shaft.

    Are newer engines going to have more power than an older engine with the same HP rating?
    With this cylinder and pump setup do I need a 10hp or would 8 or 6.5 do?
    Is brand preference like the whole ford and chevy debate or are their actual differences?
    Would a snowblower engine work just as good as an all purpose replacement engine?
    If the shaft on the new engine is 3/4" does it matter? If the pully set on the pump is seperate from the engine.

    Thank you for your time in this matter. I have been dicking around this thing for 5 weeks now and I have 4 cord of bucked round to split and stack. I just want it to work everytime I need it.

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  2. michaelthomas

    michaelthomas New Member

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    any thought on this engine for $150

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    BRIGGS AND STRATTON HORIZONTAL SHAFT 6.5 HP INTEK OHV ENGINE

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    Displacement (cc/cubic in.) 206/12.57
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  3. Sandor

    Sandor Minister of Fire

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    Since your old 10 horse engine was maybe making 5 horse, a new 6.5 would probaly be ok.

    The shaft size appears different, can you get a pulley to fit that would work with your pump?

    If the horsepower is not enough, your could gear down and spin it up!

    The new engine sounds inexpensive, you can compare to new at a Tractor Supply Company store.
  4. clambdin

    clambdin New Member

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    Just my opinion, I would try a coil off of somthing else or even a tractor or automotive coil take your coil to the parts store and try to match it up with somthing and see if it works ! most any coil might work.
  5. berlin

    berlin New Member

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    "Since your old 10 horse engine was maybe making 5 horse"

    now, sandor, what on earth makes you say that?? why would you suppose that it was only making 5hp??

    without knowing the brand of engine i can tell you that most older engines esp. old cast iron kohler and briggs not only made 10hp, but could take sudden lugging better because of thier longer strokes and higher torque than new engines of the same power.
  6. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Its not so much the engine but the capacity of the hydraulics 13 gal per minute iand your detent valve are your limitations.
    many of today's 6.5 hp can develope enough power to produce 13 gal per min I would find an engine that matches your shaft diameter also you did not say what the existing engine I have a koler K 241 10 hp 1969 and still can get parts. I have used generic round coils th 12 volt that will work from any automotive store. I would hate to throw out an decent engine just for a coil
  7. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Maybe because prior to 1972 engine horsepower was rated using the SAE Gross horspower method which yielded a figure 15% to 20% greater than the current SAE Net horsepower rating method?

    Add that to the fact that the old one probably hasn't operated up to "new" spec in years and it probably is only producing five or six SAE Net horsepower. Torque notwithstanding.
  8. berlin

    berlin New Member

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    brotherbart, while that may apply in automotive applications, there are really no accessories on a small single-cylender engine; thus the hp rating even gross is likely very close to actual. furthermore outside of poor carb adjustment which could easily be corrected assuming there actually was a misadjustment, there is no way a ten horse engine is only putting out 5 shaft hp. new or old, it makes little difference in real world application, the older engines put out what they are rated at, the only difference being the shorter stroke, less torque making lugging newer small engines almost impossible because it will quickly lead to stall- bad torque curves.
  9. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    I just looked at a few manufacturer's ratings. They advertise gross so you are partially right. When you look at the numbers for their engines gross vs. net the reduction percentage holds up for one lungers pretty much the same as automovtive engines.
  10. michaelthomas

    michaelthomas New Member

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    I got a used 8 hp briggs that came off a little used snow blower. It starts great and runs clean, no smoke. It runs the splitter but does stall with large oak pieces or very Knotty chunks. I need to adjust the carb a bit as it will start idling rough after about 10 minutes of use and then I have to move the choke a bit to bring it back to high steady idle. An older handyman type guy that I met took the other engine as a challenge to see if he could get it to run. He is the type that will fix something else that no one else could just to say that he could. He said that the problem with this type of engine is that it was made for sears and when companies make things for sears they don't always use the same components that they would for their own engines. They might install a much less inexpensive ignition system that meets sears specs but costs them less. Thus making it very difficult to match up parts for that engine. It may have been a 1972 tecumsah engine but not have the same components as a factory built tecumsah engine. The magneto type coil seems to be the sticking point with it because the timing associated with the flywheels interaction with the magneto and if the magneto doesn't line up with the flywheels magnets then it doesn't seem to work. so anyway if he fixes it then it will work, and if he doesn't then it can't run any worse than it already does. Not at all no spark. He said he had a 12 hp wisconsin that needs a little work if I find that the 8 hp won't push the splitter as well as I would like. I may take him up on that, I have heard that the old wisconsin engines have big torque and a long stroke that is great for this type of work. Thank you for your interest in this project.
  11. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Good luck with the project. I have a generator with a 25 year old Tecumseh that starts first pull every time and runs like a champ. I just hope I never have to buy parts.

    Keep an eye on fixing up old one lungers though. A log rolled down a hill and busted the carb off of my splitter. The darn carb cost me a hundred bucks at the only place online or otherwise that I could find it. Yep, a hundred dollar carb for a five horse Briggs. Just the part. I put it on myself. Lesson being that a lot of times just buying a new engine is the cheapest way to go.
  12. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    M<y suggestion is if you have to fool agound with the choke to bring it back means possibly 2 things one the float is getting stuck or there is moisture in the gas No carb adjustment solves a sticking float Carb cleaner might use drain it out free of fuel soak it with WD 40 meaning fillit up t6hen drain it add carb cleaner attach or fill up with gas and see if you are good to go
  13. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    I hit on a weird one with my splitter today. Balky misfiring engine while I was splitting. Fiddled with the mixture to no avail. Kept splitting with it doing all sorts of weirdness. Finally on a whim I reached over and took the gas cap off. Sucker smoothed out and ran fine. Gotta be a plugged vent hole in the cap!
  14. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    that happened to a lot of lawnboy products, vent hole in the gas cap getting plugged or restricted. Which does not allow the natural
    flow of gas into the carb.. Bb good find Dirty air cleaners also cause carberation problems.

    The reason I suggested wd 40 to fill the carb first is to lubricate moving parts and it does not hurt the diaphram. Old Wd 40 had ether in it. One could actually prim the carb with it and it would fire. That solution was better than starting ether which on alumium heads can blow them clear off. Ether should never be used with alumium blocks or heads. So you got it started to find out you just cracked the head, that does a lot of good?. Biggest problems is old gas varnishiing ruins the float travel or sticks them, pluggs the needle valves. Probably will need to rebuild and clean out the carb and or fuel pump. Gas treatment stablizer extends the usefull ness of the gas. I do one or two things mix gas and oil that I figure I will use in a month's time or mix it with stablizer to start with. I always run my chainsaws dry Never leave gas in them for more than a couple of, weeks same with any small gas engine
  15. Sandor

    Sandor Minister of Fire

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    No way its making 5 hp?

    So after 30 years, its not plausible that the coil was borderline for years, the points are bad, the condensor bad, flywheel slipped on the shaft, burnt exaust valve, worn valve seats, worn throttle shaft on carb, worn rings, worn cylinder bore, clogged air filter, etc ??????

    Another point you miss is that gasoline 30 years ago contained way more energy than today. Tune an unmolested carb from the 60's or 70's and you will learn that lesson, if you know what your doing. So, if you just unboxed a 30 year old engine and stuck in on the dyno, you would be lean and missing about 5-7% of your hp.

    No Way = Never

    And my friend, never say never.
  16. berlin

    berlin New Member

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    sure, saying "no way" is assuming none or little of what you just said happened to the engine; however my point was saying a ten horse is only making 5 hp is assuming ALL of that and more had happened to the engine, without any information supporting the assumption, which i felt was wrong, and giving bad advise that someone who once had a ten horse should put on a 5 and be ok. my point, which i may have had a little trouble getting across clearly is that in the real world providing the engine is not trashed and was not totally abused, the old engines not only make what they are rated at, but they produce generally more torque and have better torque curves. this can be shown quite easily when a 40 year old cast briggs is running our portable generator, because hp is easily converted to kw, producing around 6.3 kw
  17. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    This is a home made splitter no real engineering went into it matching hp rpms to the hydro pump detent valve or cylinder. It is anybody's , though educated, as to what Hp will do the job. The original 10 hp motor could have been removed from lawn tractor.
    The only way one knows is to expirement with different motors. This replacement 8 hp could work fine. I noticed one factor not mentioned before his original motor made 3600 rpms. That is quite high. He needs to find a motor that matches the capacity of the hydro pump, in terms of producing rpms. Also it would be easier to swap motors with same shafts.
    Debating old vs new and hp has little to do with replacement. His coil quit,. he made no mention of it blowing smoke lacking compression or any other signs it was not preforming to 10 hp
  18. Sandor

    Sandor Minister of Fire

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    You need to go back and read my post before you misquote "should put on a 5 and be ok". I NEVER SAID that. Be more careful.

    You "assumed" the engine was in good mechanical condition, I suggested the engine may not be. After 30 years, I think its plausible.

    And a 10hp today may make 10hp, and one tested 30 years was using gas with way more energy content.

    Blanket statements like, " the old engines not only make what they are rated at, but they produce generally more torque and have better torque curves", is interesting. Did you dyno test engines for Wisconsin, Briggs, etc in the 1970's and compare that to recent data? Yes, undersquare engines usually have better torque curves. And to quote you, and I agree with " without any information supporting the assumption, which i felt was wrong". What info do you have to back up the statement about old engines "not only make what they are rated at ".

    His pump was rated at 3600 rpm. I don't think an "old" 10 horse undersquare engine was designed to make torque at 3600rpm, or run at that rpm sustained for that matter. I don't have dyno sheets for "old" engines, so I am pontificating. So whats his gear ratio? We don't know. With the pump spinning at 3600 unloaded, is the "old" engine above or below the torque curve? If its below, it won't work well. Its its at the end or slightly above, thats great.

    You quoted "because hp is easily converted to kw, producing around 6.3 kw". Have no clue why you posted this, but 1 hp is equivelent to 746 watts, at 100% efficiency.

    I'll debate you all day long, but don't misquote me, and be prepared to back up your statements.

    Elk is right, you just won't know until you try it , but he was asking for suggestions, and I gave mine.
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