Sizing a new Stove in northern Michigan

[ArnottRidge]

Good Afternoon!

I am new to this forum and already it has provided a wealth of information. Much of what I "know" about stoves comes from here...so thank you already!

My current setup is as follows. I have an Avalon Misson Steel stove (http://www.avalonfirestyles.com/travisdocs/93508114.pdf) in a 350 sq ft finished basement. The stove can takes 16" wood most comfortably (but will take 18" if necessary as the firebox is about 20" wide...it's 1.8 cu ft). Above the stove is 1400 sq ft of living space, most of it (~1000 sq ft) on the main living level (which has vaulted ceilings) and then one bedroom on the second floor. There is an open stairwell to help heat move upward as well a a register cut through the floor right above the stove (with a small muffin fan to help draw heat up).

While I love burning wood and have no plans to change, the current configuation leaves a few things lacking:

1. We live near Gaylord, MI...where winters are pretty chilly. On a cloudy 15F day, the stove has trouble keeping the main living level about 65F. We have only lived here two years...but I'm pretty sure the stove was originally used as supplemental heat...rather than the only source...as we have done.
2. I would really like to cut my wood to 18" (with an occasional longer piece). Easier on the saws...and my back
3. Throughout the core of winter, I am up at least once (sometimes twice) during the overnight to completely restoke the fire...just to have enough coals at daybreak to get things going again.

So, I have been researching larger stoves, with lots of help from this forum, as I mentioned above. My personal preference is to go for Cast Iron (non-catalytic), solve some of the problems above, and have a stove that's going to last me a good long time. From what I have read so far, The Quadrafire Isle Royale has come to the top of my list. The company looks good, the stove is beautiful, and I have what looks to be a good dealer very close. However, I have some questions about this:

1. Is this too much stove? We use the finished basement and I don't want to run us out of there. The heat does seem to flow upwards well... but It's a much bigger firebox. I looked into the Cumberland Gap...and while it is slightly larger, it seems like I'm going to run into the same problems (log size and heat amount).
2. Can this stove last the overnight?
3. Are there other stoves I should really consider? I have looked into the Jotul F 500 Oslo, VC Defiant and the Hearthstone Heritage. Given my proximity to the Quadrafire dealer and the good things I have heard/read about the company...I would still lean towards it...but am open to any thoughts.
4. Anything else I should be thinking about? I'm still a novice...so could be missing a lot!

I thank you in advance for your assistance!

Justin

Highs in the mid 60s today...winter can't be that far away!

 

[firecracker_77]

Bigger is better for you it sounds like. If 1.8 cubic feet isn't cutting it, get 3.0

 

[pen]

I'd say if you want to go to a larger cast stove that you are going to wind up running yourself out of that basement room when it really needs to be working; just the nature of the beast of a large cast or steel stove unless you have some sort of crazy convection current keeping air moving.

I wonder if you went to a larger soapstone stove if that would be any easier on that room or not? Soap stone doesn't get as hot in general, but releases it heat over a longer period of time, less spikes, more even. People often describe it as a "softer" heat. Maybe that would be an option? Maybe someone with a soapstone stove in a smaller room heating a level above can speak up.

What is the temperature like in that basement room when you have to go down and restoke the stove in the middle of the night? Has it cooled down below lower 70's once the upstairs is cold? How hot does it get now in that stove room when the current stove is cranking?

pen

 

[PapaDave]

Hey Justin, Welcome to the Hearth.
Any chance of putting a stove on the main floor, and do a small oil-filled heater in the basement (if that's where you're pipes and such are)?
The manual says you can expect 9 hour burns, so I'm wondering about the wood situation. What kind of wood are you burning and is it DRY?

 

[Todd]

Is there any spot on the main level for a stove? It's going to be hard to heat 3 levels with a single stove from a basement no matter how big the stove is.

 

[ArnottRidge]

Thanks for the quick replies! Here are a few answers to your questions:

Temperatures in the downstairs room when I restoke the fire overnight will have fallen from the low/mid 80s while the fire is going good back into the low/mid 70s when there are a few coals left. If I don't restoke...and its fairly chilly (say in the teens)...it could fall into the upper 60s. This is with a thermometer that sits pretty close to an exterior wall...so it's probably a little low-biased.

As for my wood, I will certainly admit that last winter's supply was a little greener than I would have liked. The wood is primarily maple/beech/ironwood...with some poplar/birch. It was cut/split between Dec-March 2011...so didn't have a quite a full year of drying. This year will be better as I had just about everything cut/split/stacked by October of 2011...giving it a full year drying. I'm still relatively new in full time stove operating as well...so hopefully with some drier wood and some lessons learned with stove operation should help get some better production this winter.

I have thought about moving things upstairs...but we use the basement room alot. Also, as I mentioned, I'm not really worried about the 3rd level getting that warm...so since the current setup works most of the time...it seems like a little more heat output might do the trick. While I could see eventually placing a wood cookstove upstairs (in the distant future), I would rather not setup a new hearth on the main living level...as I don't have much room to spare up there.

The soapstone idea is an interesting one and I'll look into that some more. Finally...any change in stove is going to wait until next year given that my current wood is already cut to 16" and it will allow for some more research/$savings. Is there a best time of year for deals on these stoves? One might think spring...

Thanks again!

Justin

 

[begreen]

Nope, I can't recommend this combo. As much as I love the Isle Royale, this is the opposite situation I would recommend it for. The IR is a radiant stove. If you frequently use this small space while the stove is cranking, then you want a much less radiant stove. Otherwise bring out the the marshmellows and giant Hershey bars because you will be creating human smores.

A better choice would be a convective stove with much less radiated heat. Consider instead the cast clad steel stoves from Jotul (F50 or F55), Napoleon (1400 or 1900), Pacific Energy (Alderlea T5 or T6), Enviro (Boston 1700), etc.. A convective stove will be more comfortable to be near at 80F room temps.

 

[FyreBug]

Hey Justin, nice of you to join in. I'll be in Traverse City next week!

If It's a big stove you're looking for, I can recommend the Drolet HT-2000. 3.4 cu ft. Lot's of shielding with a built in heat exchanger. It's the only stove I'm aware of that has a dual secondary air intake so that when you dial it down or when you build a small fire it still has the air input to provide a clean burn. It's a big 'un but not cast. Your local Family Farms carry them and the price is right.

Disclaimer: I work for the company that makes them.

 

[Waulie]

Hey Justin! I'm not far from you. I totally agree with Begreen. In your situation, you should really go as convective as possible. You want to move the hot air as quickly as possible out of the stove room, rather than heating up everything in that room before you warm the air. I've never used one, but based on comments on here and my research (as I considered one myself), I'd look at the PE Alderlea line for sure. I'm not sure what dealers are in Gaylord, but there is a dealer in Traverse City (Fireside). They seemed "OK" when I visited with them last year and they had one on display they'd light up for you.

 

[ArnottRidge]

Wow Guys, Thanks so much for the advice.

Honestly, I really didn't know about the convection/radiation difference, but it makes perfect sense with our situation. Our current stove is far more convective. I always wondered how it could force so much heat out the front, but still feel "cool" on the sides. Honestlly, the Avalon Mission does quite well for it's limited size...so your suggestions of something with a bigger firebox...but still more convective, sound perfect!

Now, from what I can tell, these cast clad stoves (like the PE Alderlea) aren't available with an enamel finish. As I said in the original message, this is a finished basement and while there aren't any wetness issues from water coming inside...there can be a few days in the summer when the hot/humid weather makes it a little moist down there. I should probably go with a dehumidifier, I know, but how hard is it keeping these un-enameled stoves looking good from year to year. begreen...have you had to do much maintenance-wise to keep the stove looking good (polish, etc?). I don't have a lot of experience with maintaining cast iron. Also, what type of burn times do you get?

Waulie...I have one shop that deals with PE in Mancelona...but after that I'll likely come out to Fireside. I'm somewhat surprised there aren't more stove dealers in Gaylord/Grayling...seems like a lot of folks burning wood out here.

Again...thanks for everyone's help. You can't really beat sizing up stoves....makes for a fun pastime

Justin

 

[begreen]

I had the same concern about the finish, but it was unfounded. Unlike a true castiron stove, the metal on the Alderlea doesn't get that hot. The benefit of this is that the paint stays looking good. Going on season 4 and the finish still looks very good. FWIW, the Alderlea T5 Classic comes in black or brown enamel and looks really sharp. But if you want firepower, then go with the T6 or one of the other suggested convection stoves. Or perhaps a Summit Classic would work? It's also 3 cu ft and convective, but with a porcelain enamel steel jacket. If so, also take a look at the Napoleon 1900.

http://www.pacificenergy.net/pacificenergy/index.php

 

[FyreBug]

Since you're going to Traverse City you may want to check out Philips Lifestyle near Sam's Club. They carry Quadra Fire & they have 3 different models of Cast Iron Stoves. http://www.quadrafire.com/ProductFinder.aspx?bid={AB9CFD60-866D-4346-8E20-38F32B343C15}

I'll be there on Wednesday let me know if you'll drop in sometimes and I'll let Richard know to look out for you and see if he can help out.

I dont know enough about those models to make a recommendation but I'm sure some of the members might jump in.

 

[ArnottRidge]

@BeGreen,

I'm going to bring my first option back to the table as I just want to have all my bases covered. You have a T6 and I had 2 questions about it:

1. When it is really going, how close can you comfortably sit to the stove? In the same room?
2. In my setup (where a T6 would be located in the basement...in a 350 sq ft finished basement, with 1400 sq ft above), how hot would you think the lower room would get? 85? 90? I'm not sure about your setup...but how warm is the room you are in? I could use the furnace blower (we have forced hot air...well...if I ever turned it on) to help circulate the air as well.

Just not 100% positive I want a 2nd chimney upstairs...and a lot of lost room in a modestly sized house!

Thanks!
Justin

 

[Waulie]

Hey Justin:

If you want to be sure to get Begreens thoughts, you might try sending him a PM. Also, use the search features and you will find lots of thoughts on the T6.

IMO, without significantly changing your air flow through the house it stands to reason that your basement room will generally be quite a bit warmer than it is with the current stove in order to get more heat upstairs. I do think a convective stove like the T6 will help, and sitting close shouldn't be a big factor othen than the fact that the entire room is going to be pretty toasty. With some strategic fan placement, I think you'll see good results in heating your house. However, that basement room is pretty small and I do think it will stay pretty darn warm if you're trying to keep the rest of the house warm.

You're kind of in a tricky spot. If you really want to heat the upper floors well AND want to the basement room to be comfortable, I would probably go with a main floor wood stove and a secondary heat source for the basement. The secondary source wouldn't need to be much for such a small space. If you are putting a separate new chimney upstairs, you could get a small stove for the basement and be good to go. If you truly use the basement a lot, you could also keep the main floor stove pretty small since they'd both be running most of the time. Of course, you'd then be resigned to frequently feeding two smallish stoves. There really is no magic bullet for your situation.

 

[begreen]

@BeGreen,

I'm going to bring my first option back to the table as I just want to have all my bases covered. You have a T6 and I had 2 questions about it:

1. When it is really going, how close can you comfortably sit to the stove? In the same room?
- a couple feet away from the sides would be comfortable. The front is more radiant, so it depends on how warm you want to be. My cat likes to lie right in front of the stove.

2. In my setup (where a T6 would be located in the basement...in a 350 sq ft finished basement, with 1400 sq ft above), how hot would you think the lower room would get? 85? 90? I'm not sure about your setup...but how warm is the room you are in? I could use the furnace blower (we have forced hot air...well...if I ever turned it on) to help circulate the air as well.
- quite hot, but I would be just guessing at the temperature. Our stove is on the main floor in an open floorplan. It does not overheat the 1st floor at all.

Just not 100% positive I want a 2nd chimney upstairs...and a lot of lost room in a modestly sized house!

- Our house is not big. The stove is in the corner of our living room which is about 15 x 17ft, but with large openings that allow great heat circulation.