1. Welcome Hearth.com Guests and Visitors - Please enjoy our forums!
    Hearth.com GOLD Sponsors who help bring the site content to you:
    Hearthstone Soapstone and Cast-Iron stoves( Wood, Gas or Pellet Stoves and Inserts)

So is cat or non cat best for long burns?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by oregonrider, Sep 27, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Messages:
    824
    jpl1nh you're unique in that the Woodstock keystone has an unusual configuration in the cat world, the cat is in the front near the glass which causes the smoke towards the front and through the cat, and sounds like you're getting the occasional light off which trust me, is far more exciting than the "normal" cat units which unfortunately, most cat stoves the cat is in the back at the base of the flue. The gasses go invisible to the back where it burns unseen making a rather uninteresting display particularly when tuned down.

    Helpful Sponsor Ads!





  2. Rob From Wisconsin

    Rob From Wisconsin Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    531
    Loc:
    East-Central Wisconsin
    Interesting....
    Are you saying that your unit substitutes soapstone for firebrick??
    I've oftentimes contemplated doing that on my unit.
    What model do you have??

    Rob
  3. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Messages:
    824
    So, here's what I see. You're looking for a stove with a lot of heat shields/convection shrouds and probably a cat unit just incase. Stoves produce 2 types of heat, radiant & convection. Radiant is a form of light and can only be used around the stove. Convection is hot air, which can be blown to other places in your house. It sounds like you're having a problem where the convection off the stove + radiant energy is roasting the room you're in. Getting one with "heat shields" or "convection shrouds" will convert the radiant energy from a stove and turn it into additional amounts of hot air which, fortunately will let you blow it to the other parts of your house so it doesn't stick around the stove. If you have cathedral ceilings, they always throw a wrench into the works. Sometimes, a ceiling fan does wonders on spreading the heat to other areas of your house, other configuration turning them on create an endless loop where the air constantly recirculates in that room and hardly spreads to other areas.

    So, take a look at some cat models that offer "heat shields", the more the merrier. I know the VC Dutchwest offers a rear and lower heat shield (I personally like rear and sides). The other Vermont casting models almost all offer a rear and bottom. Englander offers secondary burn units that have side & rear heat shields, and as mentioned soapstone will buffer the heat spikes spreading out the heat longer. Your best option if you can afford soapstone, as mentioned several times is woodstock (www.woodstoves.com) and they're having a sale. They're not cheap, but you ask anybody they're worth every cent. Hearthstone (which are secondary burn units) may be another option. Did someone ask what's your budget?
  4. Rhone

    Rhone Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Messages:
    824
    I have a Hearthstone Clydesdale, haven't made any modifications to it. I wouldn't swap firebrick out with soapstone they're very different acting materials. One is an insulator, the other a transmitter. Your unit was designed & tested with firebrick, and mine with soapstone. FYI behind each piece of soapstone in my unit is a grid pattern of air channels, I can't think why they'd be there unless something to do with having soapstone work when used like firebrick and encased completely in cast iron. Since your unit wasn't designed with those channels, or around soapstone and its properties there's no telling what the results will be swapping your firebrick out with them.
  5. jpl1nh

    jpl1nh Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,572
    Loc:
    Newfields NH
    Perhaps the air channels are there to further even the heat transfer from the soapstone to the cast iron minimizing hot spots.
  6. oregonrider

    oregonrider Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    124
    Loc:
    upper mckenzie river valley, oregon
    Convection was why I have been looking at the PEs. Half my living room is vaulted ceiling with a ceiling fan on each side. Room is 13'x25' stove is half way down the long side. My budget is under $1600. roben.
  7. North of 60

    North of 60 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,449
    Loc:
    Yukon Canada
    [quote author="oregonrider" date="1190995288"]north I'd like to get an 8 or 9 hour burn. roben]
  8. karl

    karl Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,057
    Loc:
    Huntington, West Virginia
    I'm sure glad I didn't know about the Blaze Kings when I bought my summit. I wanted a non catalytic stove, so I could enjoy the pretty flames. I got the Summit because of the long burn times and it's ability to put out loads and loads of heat. I spend three or four days a week out of town, and I need something that will heat the house in a hurry. If I had known about Blaze King and their 40 hour burns, the practical side of me would have probably made me buy one. Of course I have a fireplace in the basement too and I'm hoping to finish the basement in a year or two, so maybe a blaze king will go down there. How much are they?
  9. North of 60

    North of 60 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,449
    Loc:
    Yukon Canada
    $2800---$3300 For the princess depending on the finish on the door + blower.
  10. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,160
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    There are so many "types" of stoves these days that general statements are tough. Roughly speaking, we can talk about:

    1. Catalytics (some variations on these)
    2. Non cats with updraft mode - usually using tubes and combustion where most of the bed burns at one time
    3. Non cats with downdraft mode (Acclaim, etc.)
    4. Non cats with front to back burn (Jotul Bear 118)
    and more combinations of the same.

    In the "old" days we would simply say that non-cats were best at the fast and hot burn and cats for the slow long burn. But that really only applies to non-cats listed as #2 above. #3 and #4 non-cats might perform longer burns because they do not burn the entire load at once. Then there are combos such as the Keystone, which are cats...but small enough and hot enough that a lot of secondary combustion is going on (some of it caused by the hot converter reflecting back into the firebox).

    So things are getting a bit more technical out there...as far as picking a stove for a very specific need.
  11. Gunner

    Gunner New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    851
    Loc:
    Southern Ontario
    The princess is the 2.8cuft stove correct ? Supposed to get 30hr burns according to the website? There is no magic bullet here, 2.8cuft is 2.8cuft, you only get what you put in. Divided by 30 hrs that thing aint going to but putting out squat heat wise, about the same as a portable elec space heater. Would be nice for a couple weeks in the spring and fall but lets be honest here, when it gets COLD a 2.8 cuft BK is burning 10-12 hrs just like every other 2.8cuft stove.

    I heat 1800sqft with a 3cuft stove, when its cold I'm burning a full load every 12hrs+- with stovetop temps of 500-700. If I switch to a BK tomorrow will 2.8cuft heat my house for 30hrs? Sure it will burn 30hrs but I will freeze to death.
  12. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,160
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    Hey, Gunn - the avatar might just be a bit much for the "family members" on the forum.....looks like you must have picked them up at a shop in Niagara Falls (or on the Atlantic City Boardwalk).....I know you are creating energy (methane), but how about your older avatar back?
  13. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,229
    Loc:
    Lake Wissota
    Ya, your right. There is only so many BTU's per pound of wood and the longer the burn the less BTU's the stove will be putting out per hour. But you also have to think about efficiency. Blaze King claims 82.5%! I don't know if that is even possible for a wood stove, but if it is, that would make much more heat per pound of wood than your Summit at 72.5% efficiency.
  14. oregonrider

    oregonrider Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    124
    Loc:
    upper mckenzie river valley, oregon
    Well I drove into the city (eugene) today. First off nobody sells cat stoves. All the sales people said it was old tech. I looked at the PE super 27 $1050,Avalon spokane 1250 $995, 1750 $1295 pendlton $1350,Lopi endeavor $1800 leyden $2100, Hearthstone shelburne $ 1800, Jotul 3CB $1500 and F400 $1800 and an andersen 8 $1200. Andersen is the discontinued model it and the 3CB are probably too small although there is a used 3CB on craigslist at $750 that might be a bargain. roben.
  15. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,229
    Loc:
    Lake Wissota
    If I had to choose between those stoves I think I'd get the Leyden. It's a top loader and has that new noncat down draft burn system that is suppose to burn similar to a cat stove. They claim long burn times over 12 hrs.
  16. jpl1nh

    jpl1nh Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,572
    Loc:
    Newfields NH
    I'm sure vendors who don't sell cat stoves would be happy to try to portray cat stoves as old tech. That's nonsense. Woodstock stove company sells only factory direct, no dealers, and will only ship direct to you. You do have that soapstone-cat option for your consideration, even if you don't have local access to the other cat stove manufactures
  17. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Todays cat combustors are vastly improved and still improving. If constant R&D;is being done to improve them then how would it be considered old technology?

    It is possible to purchase replacements, that lower ignition 25% then the OEM combustor it replaces. Name one other way after market parts can increase performance of non cat stoves?
    How is it old Tech to be able to increase performance burn cleaner longer than the original stove setup? I guess you just met another salesman that is not being truthful
    To me Not the person I would want to rely on, for future possibler warranty work .

    IF it were old Tech then why would VC re-certify the Cat Encore for another 5 more years to 2012 And they have a real choice of selling only non cat Encores already certified?

    Also not mentioned in prior post, VC does sell the Defiant cat and non cat models that has a 3.25 cu ft fire box size. Just added that if a larger firebox is needed
  18. Gunner

    Gunner New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    851
    Loc:
    Southern Ontario
    Key points to remember people:

    Heating 1000sqft (poorly insulated)
    325 sqft stove room
    $1600 max budget

    Would like an 8-9hr burn and close clearances as the current "smoke dragon dominates the living room"


    The lynden is a nice stove but #1) Is a bit big for a 325sqft room. #2)It's more than the budget. #3) Needs to sit 12"+ out from the wall.

    My .02 cents at $1050 You got quoted on good price on the PE super 27, well under you budget.
    It will tuck away in the corner with the closest clearances you can get...4"
    It is a proven stove that can burn 8hrs no problem.

    From Tom "thechimneysweep"
    The flagship of PE’s product line is the D1 firebox. It is used in the Super 27, the Spectrum, the Classic and the Fusion, as well as the “Pacific” insert. Having the same firebox and outer convection shell, all four models perform exactly the same: The difference is basically looks and price (the ash removal system with hidden drawer is standard on the Classic, Spectrum and Fusion models, but can be added to the Super 27 model for $115.00). We first burned a Super 27 on our showroom test flue some years ago, and it was the first Winter we were able to walk into a warm store every morning since we’d burned the original Woodstock Soapstone and Hearthstone Heritage models. The difference was, both soapstone models, although still putting out heat, were dead burned out and we had to start our morning fire from scratch. The Super 27 still had hot coals in it every morning, after a 12-hour burn. Since I work long hours and burn time is very important to me, I bought a Spectrum, and still heat my house with it today.
  19. oregonrider

    oregonrider Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    124
    Loc:
    upper mckenzie river valley, oregon
    My practical side likes the PE and Avalons as they are convection stoves. The PE seems to be the better built of the two. My heart really loves the cast iron Leyden, Jotul F400 Castine and the hearthstone Shelburne. My hearth which is brick does have a vertical back. It's 48" h x 59" w. brick is 1 1/4" thick and stands off from the wood wall 1 1/4". It has two vents at the bottom. One dealer said this would allow me to move the stove closer to the wall. roben.
  20. Gunner

    Gunner New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    851
    Loc:
    Southern Ontario
    For the cast look there is also the Alderlea T5 which is the same stove as the super 27/spectrum/fusion.... but that will start to push your budget. Isn't deciding on a stove fun :p

    Attached Files:

    • t5.jpg
      t5.jpg
      File size:
      3.4 KB
      Views:
      497
  21. oregonrider

    oregonrider Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    124
    Loc:
    upper mckenzie river valley, oregon
    gunner, No one had an Alderlea for me to look at and I forgot to ask the price. Any idea what it sells for? The shopping is fun but after hitting 5 stores It was kind of an overload. roben.
  22. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,229
    Loc:
    Lake Wissota
    Nice looking stove, a vast improvement over their steel stoves in my opinion. $1895 at www.chimneysweeponline.com
  23. oregonrider

    oregonrider Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    124
    Loc:
    upper mckenzie river valley, oregon
    That puts the Alderea in about the same price range as the leyden and shelburne. Why do I always love the more expensive items? :down: roben.
  24. Todd

    Todd Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,229
    Loc:
    Lake Wissota
    Go for it man. It's going to pay for itself eventually anyways. I figure it's not only a stove, it's also a piece of furniture.
  25. jpl1nh

    jpl1nh Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2007
    Messages:
    1,572
    Loc:
    Newfields NH
    I agree with Todd. You'll have this stove for a long time and you should get something you really are happy with, not only in performance but in appearance as well. It may push you over your budget a bit, but it's a long term investment. Otherwise 2-3 years you'll just be chomping at the bit to get a new stove that you really do like and you'll end up spending even more money. Follow the wisdom of your heart man! :coolsmile:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page