Softwood (white cedar) and creosote

[Beno]

Hi there,

Based on my previous questions to this forum I've decided to go with a VC cat Defiant for heating 1800 sq.ft, Ottawa, Canada.
Most of the trees on our lot are cedars, and I'd like to use some of it for the wood stove.
I chose VC cat Defiant for it's larger firebox and cleaner/colder burn that will allow me to sleep full nights without refueling.
Few days ago I met a neighbour who said few things:
1. Softwood like cedar builds lot of creosote in the winter. He uses it only in spring/fall.
2. My cat will get clogged.
3. VC stoves have a very low quality these days. Lots of assembly problems.
Now, I like to plan a lot in advance, so I'd like to make the right choise about the stove (hey, it's almost like with friends, you try to get the best and then you need to get used to the worst).
I also noticed that Elk, one of the VC Defiant fans, decided to buy wood stoves from a different brand, anything wrong with VC?

Thanks,
Beno

 

[Todd]

As long as your wood is good and dry it will work just fine in your cat stove and not clog anything up. However cedar is pretty low on the BTU scale and will burn pretty fast and hot, kinda like pine so it is best used for those spring/fall take the chill off type days. Save those good hardwoods for the frigid nights.

As far as VC stoves, lately we had some posts here where people were having problems with the new Everburn noncat stoves, but don't recall any bad posts about the VC Defiants.

 

[Beno]

Well, I've never operated a wood stove before, but I thought that when you engage the damper at 500*-600* F you limit the burning temperature and then you get a much longer burn time, at a lower temperature. There isn't much hardwood on my lot, that's why I plan so much around the cedar. What I've read on the internet was people complaining about poor assembly of the VC stoves, problems with gaskets etc, and not that the stove is bad. They also mentioned that probably there is no much QC/unit test before they ship a VC stove.
And yes, I'll dry the wood properly before use.
Thanks,
Beno

 

[titan]

Beno, the VC Defiant is admittedly a sharp-looking stove, but have you checked the ratings pages on this site? There's always two sides for every story(review) but that many harsh reviews would make me at least consider some other stove brands.I think a stove from any reputable manufacturer with 2.5-3.0 cu.ft. firebox could offer the burn times you seek.As for the creosote concern-dry cedar gives no cause for concern;but it will snapcracklepop like Rice Krispies!

 

[Gooserider]

If you've been reading many of the threads, you will know that Elk and I went on a tour of the VC factory last fall. They have a fairly thorough QC process where basically any worker can reject a part anywhere in the process if he sees a flaw. There were bins at every station for reject parts, and we saw them getting used quite a bit - in many cases looking at the "bad" part I couldn't immediately see the problem. Thus the parts getting to the final assembly area are probably pretty darn good.

However I would have to say I don't know how well the post assembly QA would be at catching build problems, though it seemed quite good at catching cosmetic flaws - again they had stoves tagged as needing repair where it was hard to find the cosmetic problem, even with the tag saying where it was...

I would say that aside from visual inspection, the biggest test for build flaw detection was a pressure test with a smoke generator just before the stove is boxed. (I'm not sure what pressure is used, but I presume it's fairly low.) This may not be a perfect test, but EVERY stove is put through it.

The newer model stoves are built with gasketed seams, which IMHO is a big improvement over the old method of using furnace cement, however the earlier design stoves, which I believe includes the cat models, are still built with furnace cement - design changes are slow in the stove business due to the extremely high costs of getting a stove re-certified after even a trivial change. They usually save all the changes until the stove has to get re-certified anyways.

That said, I would suspect that a cast stove like a VC, especially one built with furnace cement, probably leaves the assembly and packing area in excellent shape most of the time, but is subject to more shipping and handling damage... I would think the refractory cement is something that might be especially prone to cracking. I know an earlier thread with a VC problem looks like it might have been due to gasket leakage caused by a door getting "sprung" during installation or shipping... A gasket joint has more flexibility, but still could have a gasket settle during shipping. (I would be tempted to re-torque the assembly bolts on a gasketed stove at installation, but that is just me, and I could see how that could also cause problems if you had installers that were over enthusiastic "gorilla torquers")

OTOH, I would expect a "welded steel box" stove like an Englander or a PE to be pretty much immune to shipping damage, especially stuff that doesn't show, but we've had users with definite build problem type issues on steel stoves as well.

Bottom line, I'm not surprised at all to see more issues with cast stoves at installation just because I think they are more subject to shipping stresses causing or aggravating things that are described as "assembly issues." I think you'll find cast and soapstone stoves of all brands occasionally having them - But because VC makes so many more stoves, just by volume the number of reported issues will be higher for them, even if they have the same or smaller
e of problems...

Remember that the stories here are NOT representative of the stove buying population as a whole. We get some folks showing up while shopping, but most users are coming here searching for a solution to a problem - We very seldom see the new person showing up with a "trouble free stove, installation and burn". IOW, we don't get to see the HAPPY customers!

Gooserider

 

[wg_bent]

In my opinion, burning any pine at low temps in the spring is when the creosote happens. Burning it in the evening to get the coal bed down when you can toss on a log every hour is where pine excells. Use the cedar for day weekend burns and evenings when you do need a lot of heat but can tend the fire often.

 

[Beno]

Then maybe I should go with a non-cat stove that burns at higher temperature and burns the creosote down? I prefer to refuel more often than to have a chimney fire. They say short and hot fires are the best against creosote buildup.
Beno

 

[elkimmeg]

Beno the cat burns off the deposite that create creosote If you wood is dry and you bring the temps up to activate the cat all you should see in that chimney is brown power like dust.

If you are using less than dry wood cat or non cat will make little difference Creosote will form the stove will not produce heat and you can clogg the combustor. Usually the next hot fire will self clean it. iF you are burning wet wood, stay away from cat combustor stoves. Pine and Cedar can be burn but only id seasoned properly and dry. Wha you will have to do and adjust to is because it usually burns hot and fast you will be adding fewer pieces more frequently no matter what stove you purchase.


I have not swapped out my stoves as rumored Why mess with sucess they are preforming better than I anticipated My seconr stove is an older Intrepid. Top venting I rebuilt a couple years ago
That would be the only stove I may swap only to experiment with something else and give it away in the Donor progam Not due to preformance issues. The other reason the second stove is not uses as often and. I burn two cat stoves and both burn clean I also sneak in an occasional piece of construction lumber Never as a main diet but occasional.

I only wish the Defiant would fit my main stove flue collar exit location if it did I would have one. IT sets to high that's why I have the Encore.. Cleaning the cat takes less than 5 minutes using a Vac. If you observe the smoke exit the chimney you will know when the cat is plugged so far mine have never been plugged I clean them at the start and mid burning season they were never completely plugged anly a small abount of fly ash present I took them out so might as well clean them if if they really did not need it


I have not bought a different brand

 

[Beno]

Thanks all for your feedback.
Although not related, I design now the new house plans. What special requirements has the Defiant flue's exit? All I remember reading in the manual was the clearance around the stove and to use an 8" flue.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks all for your feedback.
Although not related, I design now the new house plans. What special requirements has the Defiant flue's exit? All I remember reading in the manual was the clearance around the stove and to use an 8" flue.

AFAIK, the only thing you have to worry about is the exit HEIGHT if one is using a rear exit connection. Remember that the flue should NEVER run downhill... I believe the reason Elk has a problem is that the flue entrance to his chimney is to low for a Defiant to fit.

Frankly if I was designing a house from scratch, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't design for a rear exit stove. I would design for a Top exit, with an NFPA non-combustible wall in the stove area. A rear exit gives a clean looking install, but also limits your stove choices greatly, as many stoves are top exit only, while most rear exit stoves are switchable.

Along the same idea of staying versatile, I'd make a non-combustible, or at least R-2.0 hearth of very generous size (flush with the rest of the floor) the idea being to have something that will accomodate any stove I might want to put there in the future - plus I think large area hearths are safer.

The chimney I'd make sure was an inside type, but I'm not sure what size flue I'd put in it. It would depend on the largest size stove I could ever see being needed - current codes say that an 8" inside chimney is acceptable for a 6" flue, so I'd go with that if I thought I might ever want to put an 8" flue stove in. If the location was smaller, so I'd never need a stove big enough for an 8" flue, I'd put in a 6"

Gooserider

 

[Beno]

My plan is to use a top exit, the flue goes vertically from the stove through the roof. I plan to hide this 8" pipe in a wall. And use a double wall chimney (prefab stainles steel).

 

[wg_bent]

Thanks all for your feedback.
Although not related, I design now the new house plans. What special requirements has the Defiant flue's exit? All I remember reading in the manual was the clearance around the stove and to use an 8" flue.

AFAIK, the only thing you have to worry about is the exit HEIGHT if one is using a rear exit connection. Remember that the flue should NEVER run downhill... I believe the reason Elk has a problem is that the flue entrance to his chimney is to low for a Defiant to fit.

Frankly if I was designing a house from scratch, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't design for a rear exit stove. I would design for a Top exit, with an NFPA non-combustible wall in the stove area. A rear exit gives a clean looking install, but also limits your stove choices greatly, as many stoves are top exit only, while most rear exit stoves are switchable.

Along the same idea of staying versatile, I'd make a non-combustible, or at least R-2.0 hearth of very generous size (flush with the rest of the floor) the idea being to have something that will accomodate any stove I might want to put there in the future - plus I think large area hearths are safer.

The chimney I'd make sure was an inside type, but I'm not sure what size flue I'd put in it. It would depend on the largest size stove I could ever see being needed - current codes say that an 8" inside chimney is acceptable for a 6" flue, so I'd go with that if I thought I might ever want to put an 8" flue stove in. If the location was smaller, so I'd never need a stove big enough for an 8" flue, I'd put in a 6"

Gooserider

All very good points from Goose. I think if I were to do things again, many of these points are very valid. If your designing a house to accomodate wood heat though, I'd also seriously look at the large fireplaces like fireplace xtrordiair or Quadrafire 5700. They're made to be whole house heaters (with proper options) rather than Livingroom decorations (as are many of the low end non-epa approved fireplaces) Another good ground up choice would be something like one of the wood gassification boilers like a Tarm or Garn. With a boiler, you could have a whole house solution that is very efficient and contained to a basement where dust and mess is minimized.

If I were designing from scratch, I'd have something like a Tarm with heat storage and radiant floors using hydronic tubes embedded in thinset concrete. I'd consider incorporating a small stove in a living area for those "take the chill off" days or for atmosphere.

 

[Gooserider]

My plan is to use a top exit, the flue goes vertically from the stove through the roof. I plan to hide this 8" pipe in a wall. And use a double wall chimney (prefab stainles steel).

Sounds reasonable, though remember there are still significant clearance requirements for the prefab chimney - which I believe is the only thing you can hide in a wall... I'd also make sure you think about possibly needing to replace the pipe in the future, so leave access to it. (IMHO that is the biggest advantage of a clay flue masonry chimney w/ a liner - probably the easiest long term maintainance approach, just yank out one liner and drop in the next...)

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Beno the defiant can use a 6" flue but one can not use the open door fireplace screen option if you want to use that option 8" flue is required