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soot throughout the house

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by turbot2112, Dec 15, 2007.

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  1. turbot2112

    turbot2112 New Member

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    i posted earlier in the week about this and thought i had it fixed but i dont. anybody ever have this problem? i thought these units were sealed pretty tight. im thinking its the combustion blowere gasket but not 100% sure. i do see some soot around the area of the motor. its killin me allready. i guess thats what i get for ordering online. now im ramblin. if in fact the combustion blower was leaking , would that make that much of a mess? also, dont ever buy any thing from zoobler. sorry for the rant im just a little ticked right now. thanks jeff :mad:

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  2. Shane

    Shane Minister of Fire

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    Is this an insert or freestanding unit? If you are getting an ash leak anywhere it is possible that the convection blower will pick this up and distribute through your house. It's really strange though that your getting enough leakage to really notice. Check the gaskets that's the number one place your leak will be. The other, highly unlikely, possibility is that your exchanger system is compromised somewhere.
  3. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Zoobler has claimed to me, in writing, that they are 100% about customer satisfaction. Now that in itself does not mean anything, but here is the thing.....you should not have to fix your stove. If you did not have black soot before, and you do now, then they should take the stove back - or get a factory rep to fix it. I understand that you want to help then, and that is all and good with small and addressable problems. But you seem to have made a good effort. You should be in touch with the factory, maybe give it another shot, and then the stove should go back - at their expense. I'm sure your cc company will back you, even if you have paid the bill already.

    BTW, I did once have a gas or pellet stove (I forget which but from a major maker) that produced soot.....we tried every possible solution, and it ended up being one of the only stoves we ever had to send back. The maker still didn't want to take it back, but I basically told them this was what was going to happen!

    And, sure enough, the same exact stove in the same installation (new one) did not soot! Proof Positive.
  4. stoveguy13

    stoveguy13 Minister of Fire

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    my guess is that this is a pellet ? leaking in the vent pipe in that case if the fly ash is droping down around the convection blower maybe causing it spread check the venting and and seal it
  5. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Whoa, stoveguy13 is back....coming up for air?
  6. stoveguy13

    stoveguy13 Minister of Fire

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    yea it has been a crazy two months we started to go. havent had much chance to do anything it looks like things are busy in this world as well. hope you are good craig
  7. turbot2112

    turbot2112 New Member

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    think i found it. it looks like it is leaking around were the exhaust tube meets the blower.its not the gasket though.there is a space were the blower slides into the bracket and it looks to be leaking there. kind of hard to explain. i tried loading it up with high temp rtv so we will see what happens. this whole stove thing is turning into a friggin nightmare. gotta repaint the whole basement after the holidays.oh, by the way it is a pellet stove . did i say that zoobler has no customer service? thanks jeff
  8. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    HEY!!! wb stoveguy13 good to se ya again missed seeing ya, as for our leaky friend , i think you have it nailed, be advised that pellet exhaust can get to 500F maxed out and you need a silicone that will handle that temp constantly , other than that i hate it that you are having trouble, keep us informed , we can "pick up that slack " left by online dealers on occasion, you found the right place.
  9. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    the exhaust blower doesnt bolt in??? youre kidding!!????
  10. turbot2112

    turbot2112 New Member

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    the exhaust blower does bolt in on the top and bottom but there is a tiny space that the gasket dosent cover. guess thats how they do things in the great white north. also,took the cover off the other side of the stove and saw that the fins on the blower that blows out the hot air has , you guessed it soot on it. nice huh? thanks jeff
  11. turbot2112

    turbot2112 New Member

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    exactlly thanks jeff
  12. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    That sucks.....well, the next time the Prez there emails me and tells me how high their customer satisfaction is, I will point to this thread!

    It also shows the benefit of folks buying from their local dealers...or making certain BEFORE purchasing what happens if stove is defective, etc......

    And no only Zoobler, but the stove maker....sounds like they are not doing the proper QC on these things. A pressure test of sorts would seem a smart move.
  13. turbot2112

    turbot2112 New Member

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    if i could do it over again you better believe i would buy from a local dealer and no, it wouldnt be a napoleon.
  14. cakewalk

    cakewalk New Member

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    No offense to you but napoleon is just a Junk stove sold through Chimney sweeps VIA copperfield.
    and other type dealers that cant get better stoves to sell.
    Any company that starts to sell there stove through a company like Copperfield Chimney supply direct drop ship through chimney sweeps Lost all my confidence.
    YOU HAVE TO HAVE A SHOW ROOM to sell a stove.
    napoleon just got on the pellet stove band wagon when pellet stove started selling like Candy a few years ago.
  15. turbot2112

    turbot2112 New Member

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    no offense taken, but why do you say napoleon is a junk stove. do you have experience with them?problems with them?explain please so i know what to look foward to. thanks jeff

    No offense to you but napoleon is just a Junk stove sold through Chimney sweeps VIA copperfield.
    and other type dealers that cant get better stoves to sell.
    Any company that starts to sell there stove through a company like Copperfield Chimney supply direct drop ship through chimney sweeps Lost all my confidence.
    YOU HAVE TO HAVE A SHOW ROOM to sell a stove.
    napoleon just got on the pellet stove band wagon when pellet stove started selling like Candy a few years ago.[/quote]
  16. Shane

    Shane Minister of Fire

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    I haven't had a whole lot of experience with them but they did used to distribute through a dealer network. My father in law sold them while I was still in high school. Have they fallen in quality since then? He certainly didn't sell them because that's all he could get at that time he sold Lopi, FPX, Earthstove, Quadrafire, Harman, Hearthstone, Hitzer, Vermont Casting, Majestic and probably a couple more I'm forgetting.
  17. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    napoleon has always made basic wood stoves.

    Im not sure when they started selling Pellet. But im sure it was last year after the pellet boom hit again.

    They sell to anyone. No dealer Territory like most of the other stove makers

    I used to buy them from a Heating and cooling supply house and any contractor could pick one up from this supplier at Wholesale.
    So I would have them on my showroom. The Contractor tell the Home owner that he is going to build a house for to go look at the stoves in my store. Then the contractor would go pick one up at the same cost I paid for it at the Supply house.
    I was a FREE SHOWROOM for Napolean.

    Now you can have any chimney sweep that has an account order you one from Coppierfield Chimney supply and have it drop shiped to your door.
    .
  18. zoobler

    zoobler New Member

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    Craig, As you know I visit your site quite often.To see the state of the business and the consumers alike and for information. I am well aware of the problems this customer is quoting and would like to state zooblers' response. Now I realize that to some forum members no matter what i say will get flamed. Hence why I visit often but don't post. But this post has me me perplexed, so i will respond. We do provide a satisfaction return guarantee, posted quite clearly on our web site stating, among other things unit must brand new unused. Additionally we provide warranty coverages as per the manufacturer.I believe this is more than reasonable. and we do take pride in our customer care dept..11 years online and only 2-3 complaints that I have found via google is what i would consider reasonable also. My Customer care manager Kristina has spoken to our customer( i believe this is the same gentleman if not please call me personally and i will personally assist you as I come from an installers background and i am a licensed hvac installer and i believe we could get this resolved quickly and professionally). on numerous occasions. We sold him a Napoleon NPS40 pellet stove and a standard Security pellet "up and out kit". We have spoken to our customer and relayed our opinion to him & offered to send a service man to his home . The installation he chose to do is against manufacturers specifications. It came to our attention from speaking to the customer that he chose the following vent scenario after the purchase and secured more vent pipe of an unknown brand from another source. We clearly always recommend professional installation and inspection for these exact reasons. His scenario disclosed here for the first time and crucial for this conversation is "off of the stove with a 3" Tee, vertical 3' and a 90% elbow, thru the wall and under a deck for eight feet horizontal and finally a termination cap. In violation of the installation manual, each section of pellet vent must be screwed and sealed with rtv silicone also any horizontal run over 5 feet you must increase the chimney system to 4". He was told the venting is 100% invalid and it needs to be corrected in order to ensure the safety and performance of the unit. It is unfortunate that he experienced these problems. He purchased a great unit and I am confidant that if installed correctly he will get years of enjoyment from it. Thomas Olphie, President, Zoobler
  19. Dougsey

    Dougsey Feeling the Heat

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    The plot thickens....
  20. littlesmokey

    littlesmokey Minister of Fire

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    I for one would certainly like to know it this is the same stove and owner. I had a hard time understanding the leaking problem based on the information provided. Then to bash the stove and the seller really tweaked my suspicions. I can not imaging the combustion blower being able to push 8 horizontal feet and even work. It makes sense it would find an easier exit. I wouldn't blame the stove or the seller in this case.
  21. drizler

    drizler Minister of Fire

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    I do EVERYTHING myself including a lot of things that aren't necessarily legal, moral or proper in many officials sense of judgment. That said in doing it yourself you take on a very large portion of the responsibility and have to take it all with a grain of salt when things don't go exactly perfectly. How may guys have trouble with installers after they paid the long dollar and things aren't right? Plenty no doubt. When you take on the job yourself the majority falls right in your own lap. Hell, how much help can someone be on the phone? Not much in most cases beyond offering the best off site advice and what else can one expect. Myself I follow the time honored army principal of KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. That takes care of most headaches right there and if there are any they are small. Secondly, FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS DIRECTIONS PERFECTLY. Now I violate this rule myself all the time but I do it very very carefully gleaning every bit of information I can find in places like this and others. If you must do something different find some guy who had done it first and then carefully do it like he and others have done. Even then you are working without a net to a certain extent. Things like not following the pipe diameter specifications make you the test pilot and if it works more power to you but if it doesn't oh well. Like the Doctor says, " if you are doing something and its hurting you may be you should stop doing it". Same goes for the pipe diameter experiment. You tried it didn't work, oh well. Suck it up buy the right stuff and sell the stuff you have on Craigs list or Ebay. So you lose a few bucks it happens every day to all of us. Life is too short to dwell on the stuff. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you........................................
  22. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Good to hear from you Thomas, and I do know there are two sides to every story. As I mentioned in the post above, it is really up the manufacturer in most cases to deal with actual defects....if there is any. It is up to the seller, especially if direct, to make sure that the manufacturers they represent are taking care of the customer (or else said distributor or dealer must take up the slack)....

    Obviously the idea that a product must be brand new to be returned (if defective) would not make most people happy.....after all, how the heck would someone know if the unit was defective until they used it?

    Also, the idea that stoves sold direct are always going to be installed by pros and to the letter of the manual....well, I think we all understand that is not going to happen. Even customers who bought in my shop (after much coaching) often did things wrong....and 100% of the time, it was my responsibility to fix it! Never once in 10,000+ units did I say "you did it wrong, eat it". I'm not saying that your company or the manufacturer is saying that......but the bottom line is that the customer must be satisfied one way or the other with education, help and most importantly, the attitude that they have trusted you with their purchase.

    None of us, you included, are new to the game. We all buy stuff over the net.....I have a new flat screen, a new mac....just in the last couple of weeks. So we are not talking about something which is a mystery. Basically, in order to REALLY stand behind something, a manufacturer, retailer or distributor (or all three) have to add some $$ to the price in order to pay for all the "losses" of time, parts and occasional returns, etc.

    Pellet stoves, as most know, are very different than wood (and than gas, IMHO) in terms of this discussion. Having sold them in my store for year, we found it difficult to stand behind them to the level were used to (with wood stoves)......even when we had 3 or 4 people on staff to deal with them - and had installed them ourselves. Many major stove manufacturers have chosen not to produce pellet stoves for this very reason - they cannot afford to "back" them to the degree which would uphold their reputation.

    Once you or I (or anyone) takes a couple thousand bucks from a customer, they somewhat "own" us until we get their appliance working. Whether around the corner or around the world, I think that applies. Many successful companies have sold direct including VC.....Dutchwest, Woodstock, Dell, and on and on, but virtually all of them were "made" in the end by the level of customer service.

    Again, not commenting on this particular situation, but it should not be that a buyer of a new stove needs to come here for advice on how to make their house not soot up. I think you can agree on that (although we don't mind helping ANYONE when we can)......

    So, yes, I am talking about the perfect world...the LL Bean and Craftsman of online sales.

    As far as your business, I honestly have not studied it (and have no reason to), but it is always an option to have a little higher of a price and more technical (as opposed to customer service) people on staff...especially if the manufacturer is lacking (and most are!).......tough business.

    My "side" of this whole thing is always with the consumers, not wanting folks to have $2000 boat anchors......even the dealers of the "best" and most expensive pellet stoves made (like Harman) clearly say that they will not sell any distance from their shops since they cannot service them (meaning that folks WILL need lots of service). I think that says something. These are not computers that can be boxed up and sent back with a DHL call tag!

    Anyway, thanks for jumping in - I hope your biz is doing well, and hopefully we can have our friend here solve his situation (seems as if he may have)....
  23. turbot2112

    turbot2112 New Member

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    first of all im not here to start a pissing match. just want my stove working the way it should. now, as far as the 8 ft. 3 inch vent which is horizontal , it has more than the quater inch rise per 12 inches.it was added on to what was already installed and is temparary and it did more than help the situation. im not about to go out and spend another 3 or 400 bucks on all 4 inch vent until this stove satisfies me. now, the issues im having are black soot on glass after an hour or 2, no heat unless on setting 5, and all this was happening before and after i installed the extra 8 ft of vent. clearly there is an air problem somewhere and im pretty sure the front door is leaking.they want me to send pics of the gasket which has a tear in it and hopefully resolve it. as far as the soot in the house, well that was part my fault for having the vent terminated under the porch which beleive it or not in this manual it tells you that you can do that, dont know what the heck there thinking, there was also a leak by the exhaust tube. its fixed and im happy that that part is resolved. i understand that zoobler didnt make the stove or the directions that came with it but its frustrating when you cant speak to someone on the phone and are dealing with emails. i could say more but like i said im not here to start a pissing match. this is a great messageboard for info ,whish i would have found it sooner.just seems im the only person using this stove and it sometimes makes me think, is this thing any good? hopefully the problem will get resolved , its just probablly gonna take a while. thanks jeff
  24. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for the good attitude, turbo....we don't want to fight here either, just to help everyone get their stuff working right!

    Well, if the venting is not 100% up to spec, it will cause a number of problems. I'm sure you know that now, whether or not the manual was/is wrong.

    Glass soot can also be related to venting....although MANY pellet stoves (including mine) get soot on the glass and it pretty much stays there, so that is not out of the ordinary.

    Rod often mentions here (and he is REALLY the expert, knows more than most factory guys!), the best venting setup is often not the minimum one specified in the manuals, but one with a substantial rise.

    See this thread and pics to know how Rod (our moderator and a pellet stove dealer) installs his own and others stoves:
    http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/12497/
  25. Shane

    Shane Minister of Fire

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    Sounds like there might be back pressure on the combustion blower from the vent being too small. Although if your termination was under the deck by 12" then the original install seems to have been within spec. and no back pressure should have existed. Since you've sealed up your pipe leaks and I assume sealed all joints there probably is an airleak somewhere. Have you checked that the ash pan gasket is good and sealing correctly? You say that the door gasket has a tear in it? Is is possible to purchase the gasket yourself from the hardware store and if Zoobler/Napoleon agrees be reimbursed for it? I don't know how much of a PIA it would be to actually take the stove out doors and install a short amount of chimney, run it that way and see if it still soots up seems like that would isolate the cause of the issue between stove or vent.
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