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Staple up floor heat

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by Grover59, Nov 29, 2008.

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  1. Grover59

    Grover59 Member

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    Ok I finally got something done with my staple up radiant floor heat, I have only one third of the house done, but that is good considering the stuff I had to move to do it. With all of the great information on this forum and the internet, I decided to do it this way. First I ran two loops of half inch o2 barrier pex in each run about 8 inches apart, it really was not that much more cost and I believe that it will give me a more responsive floor, as others have said. Also I used the aluminum plates which I made myself with 6 inch flashing and a press that I made with 2X4's and some half inch pex pipe, works very well.
    I put the plates on the entire run of the pipe where I could; again I believe this also would make a more responsive floor and help lower the temp that I have to run through the pipe, which is my main goal. Below the pipe I insulated with 6 inch fiberglass, before putting the fiberglass up I taped that foil stuff on the top for a reflector.
    Now this was really not hard but it is labor intensive, and more so because I had to move all of the junk around that was on the floor like 6 times. As far as cost I have about $400.00 or less in that one zone which is a little more then a third of the house, now this is not including a circ pump.
    At first I was planning on using my dhw to run through the floor and control the temp with a tempering valve, but after thinking about it I decided to run my storage water directly through the floor, and use a tempering valve to control the water temp in the floor.
    However as I surfed the net one day and came across this thermostat https://www.azeltec.com/customer/product.php?productid=16187&cat=0&page;=
    This thermostat controls the floor temp, at the same time it calls for heat in the room, it basically will turn the circulator off and on to maintain the floor temp to what you set it to until the room temp is reached and satisfied.
    So I decided that this may be a better approach, it will control the floor temp regardless of the water temp flowing in the pipe. This would save me some money and hassle in installing tempering valves. I have already ordered the thermostat, so I will just have to try it to see if this approach will work, has anyone got any thoughts on this approach?

    Steve

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  2. WoodNotOil

    WoodNotOil Minister of Fire

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    I think you are right on with the thermostat you odered. When I did my staple up they hadn't started making them like that. The company I went through sold me one that just works with a floor sensor. The rooms got too hot alot. Recently I put in a thermostat that is really for electric baseboard that now turns the circ on and off based on room temp and the floor one is still hooked up as a high limit to not heat the floor over 85*. I posted about it in this thread http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/28945/ but no one commented. :down:
  3. Grover59

    Grover59 Member

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    I am excited to get the thermostat, at this time I am just running it with the regular room stat, it works but I know the floor is getting a little to hot and the room over shoots.

    Steve
  4. WoodNotOil

    WoodNotOil Minister of Fire

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    You will have to keep it set a little lower than you would for radiators. Also, when the circ shuts off, the floor absorbs all the heat left in the line which shoots it up another degree or two. Warm toes are nice, but every time I walk upstairs in my house my feet feel cold and even though the air temp is a few degrees higher up there, it feels a little colder. Small price to pay for comfort though!
  5. Grover59

    Grover59 Member

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    Yes you are right, I have already noticed I have to leave it lower and I still feel comfortable, I believe this is what they say about radiant floor heat it is more even and comfortable. One other note on the themostat, I was at first looking at one that only controlled the floor temp, I was just going to run a room stat, along with it to cut the pump when the room got up to temp, the floor temp would have been held at a max with the other thermostat.

    Steve
  6. Jeff S

    Jeff S Feeling the Heat

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    This is great information,radiant floor heat is a project I have in the planning stage.
  7. Grover59

    Grover59 Member

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    If you do this and it is staple up I would use the plates, they make a difference that is worth it, It surprises me but I have talked to heating people that have installed staple up heat and they said that I will have to run 180* water to make it work. However when I ask them if they used the plates they said no, they just clamped up the pipe. One heating guy, the guy that designed my Black Bear boiler, has also installed a lot of staple up heat he recommends using the plates, one thing he warned about was they can be noisy.
    I have not noticed the noise but I have carpet in that location, hey it only makes sense the plates move the heat, and I have some locations I have not insulated yet and I can tell you that the plates will be hot on the edges, this has to be better.

    Steve
  8. BrownianHeatingTech

    BrownianHeatingTech Minister of Fire

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    Noise is usually the result of improper installation.

    Some potential for noise exists, any time you're dealing with a heating system, and materials which have differing rates of thermal expansion. However, proper installation technique can mitigate or even eliminate the noise factor...

    Joe
  9. WoodNotOil

    WoodNotOil Minister of Fire

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    Mine makes a little noise under my hardwood floors when the zone first comes on after not being on for a while. Only lasts a few seconds and I rather like the sound since it indicates to me everything is working.
  10. Grover59

    Grover59 Member

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    Yes I can see what you mean, when I first started mine I noticed some noise when I was in the basement, however I have not noticed it lately, I really thought that I would have a lot of noise because I used so many plates, but so far so good.

    Steve
  11. able 1

    able 1 New Member

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    plates are a good idea and if installed wrong will make noise they should not be touching each other and usally fastend on only one side if system makes alot of noise you can run a weather responsive mixing valve or pump and run the water through the floor constantly wich will lesson exspansion and contraction noises and also provide better comfort and less tempature swings as far as profesionals not using plates it all depends on the manufacture of the tubing and also staple up works but installing the tubing on top with panels or in gypcrete have faster reaction times less temp required to get throgh the floors but has its down sides that you cant get to the tubing if someone punctures it also you have to be carefull when installing with diferent type flooring requires different temps like carpet hardwood and tile beacause of there R values so diferent floors may want to be on separate zones or flow needs to be regulated to adjust for different temps
  12. Grover59

    Grover59 Member

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    Yes I was told to leave one side not stapled but I just could not do it, I think it defeats the purpose of the plate getting the heat to the floor. I also ran the plates against each other so to make the floor as responsive as possible. So far the noise is no problem, hopefully it will stay that way, also I will be running a separate zone for the kitchen it has a regular floor but the living room/dining room has carpet, so there will be two zones. I am not going to regulate the temp of the water going through the pipe, what comes out of my tank is what it will get. But I will control the floor temp with this thermostat I found that does both control the room temp and at the same time does not allow the floor temp to get higher then your desired setpoint. https://www.azeltec.com/customer/product.php?productid=16187&cat=0&page;=

    We will see how well that works, here are a couple more pictures of the install with the insulation.

    Attached Files:

  13. able 1

    able 1 New Member

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    How long are the loops
  14. atlarge54

    atlarge54 New Member

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    This information is real life and NON-professional. I used aluminum similar to yours and on startup minor noise, but my floor loops are on almost nonstop the entire heating season. My 1st year with boiler I used a fan with water to air HX. Now with floor loops installed, a thermostat operates the fan during real cold weather. The floor loops have no thermostatic controls other than a mixing valve set at 135 to 140 degrees. I'd recommend controling loop temps. at the least. Striving for a highly responsive system might be a two edged sword. My floors are way way less than ideal and I think that has made the system easy to control. I'm using a taco 009 and pumping 5GPM through 5 loops which total 800'. The thing I'm most amazed by are the small temp swings, 3 degrees is common and even then the lower temp still seems pretty comfortable.
  15. Grover59

    Grover59 Member

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    The loop I just got done in the living room dining room area are about 260 ft, of two runs of 1/2 inch tubing, this appears to be working quite well so far. Tonight I will finish the rest of the insulation for the last 6 bays, this should help. Next I will go to the kitchen/bathroom area this floor has not carpet and I will do it the same way, this is not the same distance probably about 190 to 210 ft of tubing.

    Steve
  16. Grover59

    Grover59 Member

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    That's funny I also use a water to air heat ex to blow heat in the hallway of the house, this is what heats the house quick, however it is not very even. I installed it last year to use storage water, to heat the house instead of the baseboard, it works well. At this time I am now still using the forced hot air but at the same time I have the living room radiant heat for more comfort in that area. I will say this I have noticed that the comfort level is great, I can leave the living room thermostat set at 65 and you still feel comfortable in that room, and no one seems to complain about it being cold. With the baseboard I had to have it at 70 to get the dame results, and it seemed to be more drafty. I can already see that I will have to place the thermostat on one temp and leave it there, and my thermostat will shut down when it reaches 1 degree above set point and start up at 1 degree below set point, so I would be looking at a 3 degree swing.

    Steve
  17. Birdman

    Birdman New Member

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    I can say I was one of the people these early systems were tested on. 12 years ago I had the black radiator type hose tacked up under all my floors. When the guy left in April... he said I would love it. I did not. I had to insulate it. I used the reflective bubble wrap then regular 13 R insulation under the floor. The back bedrooms were carpeted above. Bad. the heat didn't get through good enough. The other part of my house is cathedral living room. Bad idea... as heat just rose. It is a slow heat.. and constant. Not good for large open areas like cathedral. Lastly... a mouse bit a hole in it... water everywhere. I ripped it all out about 5 years after I had it... and installed a wood stove. MUCH better heat. It looks like the aluminum idea is much better. Keeps the mice away... and gets heat up better. My friend built a nice new house 3 years ago.... has heat in floors like the new system. Also has nice tight house.. and large tile entry way and kitchen. Perfect for radiant in floors. Very nice. Not good for my house though. Not tight Log cabin
  18. sdrobertson

    sdrobertson Minister of Fire

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    Steve, I didn't want to hijack this post so I have waited for a while before I posted. Could you explain how you formed your homemade plates and what kind of press you used. I've thought about this and this would be a excellent project for my spare time.
  19. Fred61

    Fred61 Minister of Fire

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    I installed staple up radiant tubing using plates and haven't had the noise problem. One reason is that I left a gap between each one. The other is that I purchased the plates from Radiant Floor Company and the material is annealed. Much softer than the flashing that many are using.

    It is also very easy to form. Just screw a piece of your tubing on a 2X4 and dado a slot in a second 2X4 that clears the tubing, lay down your aluminum sheet over the screwed down tube, place the slotted piece on top and whack it. You'll figure out what size hammer to use.

    www.radiantcompany.com
    1-866-warm-toes (927-6863)
  20. stephenmoore

    stephenmoore Member

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    Didn't forming your aluminum transfer plates this way mean you use thinner aluminum for the plates ? Roughly how much time did this take ? I'm asking because I did my 1950's era home over with radiant in joist and I found this work very tedious, although rewarding eventually. I just can't imagine adding another step into the equation. You guys are tough doing all that extra work !
  21. Grover59

    Grover59 Member

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    This is where I got a lot of good info, on this page they explain how to make the press for the plates, I did not use a hammer I just jumped on the thing, it was more time consuming but it was a lot less money.

    http://www.radiantcompany.com/details/joists.shtml

    Steve
  22. Fred61

    Fred61 Minister of Fire

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    The aluminum is .01" thick. I don't see why they need to be thicker. They don't need to store heat. They just need to distribute it. There's more heat coming right along behind.

    Sorry! I must have been having a "senior moment" when I was describing the forming process in the above post. Just now, when I went down to measure the material, I had to move the fixture.

    The tube is screwed to one piece as I said but on the other half I just screwed a couple 2X3s to a piece of plywood with clearance between them for the tube and some space for the aluminum material. Layed the aluminum sheet on the 2X3s and whacked the piece with tube.

    I didn't think the work was bad. I would bend a handful, staple them up and climb down and bend a few more. It only takes one thump with an 8 lb sledge. Not any more work than folding a few pieces of paper. Ya gotta be doing something!
  23. sdrobertson

    sdrobertson Minister of Fire

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    Thank You guys - this was just what I was looking for and could not seem to find.

    Thanks again,
    Shannon
  24. atlarge54

    atlarge54 New Member

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    I made mine out of wood and an old door hinge. Where others use a piece of tubing I ripped a length of wood with two beveled edges. Lift the bender and insert a length of alum, close and stand on top to form, open and remove. For cutting the metal to length before forming an old paper cutter works great. When installing you can force the alum to pinch the tubing which drops the tubing away from the floor slightly but makes better tubing to metal contact.
  25. Frxdy

    Frxdy New Member

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    I didn't read this entire post. I have staple up, no aluminum. I use an infloor thermostat, we call them "slab-stats". Aim to use 140-145* water and keep the floor at 80*. An 80* floor will keep the air about 72. I have a switch in the kitchen to shut it off on sunny days as we get wicked solar gain & it'll override.

    Where are you? I'm in Orrington...that's central Maine. Maybe you're next door.
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