My first post; I've researched on several sites and joined this one...seemed the best. Question: I checked out of my work library a new book titled: "Modern Hyronic Heating" by John Siegenthaler, Third Addition showing 2012 date of print??. After exhausting research of almost three years, I've chosen my stove. Trying to draft out plumping details and have not read this book yet, but thumbing thru it, I ran across his recommendation of utilizing a plate heat exchanger between the stove and the rest of a system he calls "closed" and pressurized. Is ANYONE running this out there and if so, what are the advantages or disadvantages of this. I can see where this would virtually eliminate cold water shock going back into the stove which would/could keep down stress on your welds and internal condensation, but wouldn't a primary/secondary system do this also??? I can understand the house system would be kept cleaner, and any boiler chemicals whether soda ash/lime or store bought chemical mix would not be pumped by your zone pumps which would improve seal and impeller life, but what about ENERGY LOSS in the plate heat exchanger, and it becoming clogged up down the road on the stove side??? I can think of several more "thoughts" but I guess I was asking for help in if this is a sound direction to go. Pretty expensive looking at some of your guys pictures of complex headers,valves, check valves, throttling electronic valves etc... I like simple, sound, ultra reliable and energy saved as in "burn less wood", get more heat. Any thoughts about this? I started this project to beat the high propane heat prices, have access to lots of free wood. Will end up feeding two air furnace heat exchangers and two sidearm water heaters... two of us don't use much hot water, mainly need to heat two levels, one furnace in basement, one in attic above second floor area...so up vertically about 28-30 foot of head, second unit. Both water heaters down in basement. For now, I'm reading above named book... thanks for any help.( East Tennessee )
Stove- Open to Atmosphere / Closed - Distribution System ??????
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Look at some of the stickies at the beginning of this forum, they should give you insight on how all of this works. If you have a closed heating system (look like you do), then there is no need for a heat exchanger (HX) from the boiler/storage to the loads. You do need a return temperature protection (Danfoss or Laaddomat for example) to protect the boiler, with or without a HX. I worked with the Radiant Company in New England on my system design. They have some stuff on their website.
The example you are talking about is a outdoor furnace - Seigenthaler(Siggy) - doesn't call these boilers because they are open to the atmosphere and can't be pressurised.
I know plenty of people that run these units directly into a heat exchanger and side arm but there are situations where you need to isolate the heat source from the distribution center with some type of water to water heat exchanger and I believe yours is one of them.
You said you want to feed a heat exchanger that is in the attic,which would probably be a higher elevation than your heat unit .The only way to accomplish this would be to pressurize the system.
Another reason for isolation would be to tie an open system into an all ready existing pressurized system you may have.
Of course if your unit is of the pressurized variety there is no need for the isolation and the loss of efficiencies that are associated with it.
I know plenty of people that run these units directly into a heat exchanger and side arm but there are situations where you need to isolate the heat source from the distribution center with some type of water to water heat exchanger and I believe yours is one of them.
You said you want to feed a heat exchanger that is in the attic,which would probably be a higher elevation than your heat unit .The only way to accomplish this would be to pressurize the system.
Another reason for isolation would be to tie an open system into an all ready existing pressurized system you may have.
Of course if your unit is of the pressurized variety there is no need for the isolation and the loss of efficiencies that are associated with it.
Thanks all for the fast response. Wow... so much to understand when at first one thinks this is so simple. Gotta go to work, will get back online tonight. Sorry for the lengthy message, will break out tonight. Thanks again, E
maple1
Minister of Fire
Also - may help if you define 'stove' as you're using it. Sounds like your maybe talking about a hot water furnace? Or 'boiler'? Inside or out?
NATE379 said:
Blaze King Princess,
Sorry for the running sentence structure.... got carried away..
In his book, he states with a gasification unit, one should have a "buffer tank" and place coils in the tank to pull out the heat. I can see the advantage of that in several ways but expensive to do. If I go that route, I'm not sure how much "coiled copper" it would take to pull the required BTU's from the water in the tank that's heated by the outside furnace and another expense he shows is a very large plate type heat exchanger between the furnace lines as they enter the house to another pump to push water thru the tank on the tankside and yet another pump or pumps to push thru your coils going to your system. Seems way too complex with all the coils and pumps. I was wondering if anyone had done this type or similar set up and why.
Trying to come up with something more simple..... thanks for the interest and please excuse my ramblings..... (Couldn't tell I work on a Nuclear Reactor could you...) ha... E
Hunderliggur said:
Thanks for the directions! Will do. I've very ignorant to all this... i. e. heat transfer and isolation needs.... learning before the big plunge.. E
Jeff S said:
Thanks!! I'm beginning to see... I'm just looking for the simplist most efficient system.... learing about so much it's overwhelming
!! Appriciate the advice... EI've picked, after much research, Portage and Main 250 Optimizer. I've never laid eyes on one, but my background is 28+ years a Millwright +7 years Supervising Mechanical Craft at a Research Nuclear Reactor. Get to "see" a lot of high end, top shelf work our guys do, and this Stove to me has all I'm looking for in quality, very sound engineering applied to build a relative simple, solid system to effectivly burn wood without catylitic things to clog up.maple1 said:
I called "Brian" , at P&M, and during a lengthy conversation of my assault in questions, he knew the answers and was very polite and helpful. And in the few questions or concerns I had, he had already resovled them in his models made early this year. One was the slot in the floor has "replaceable" long cast/fired clay bricks in case your slot becomes damaged from gouging with tools or from the intense heat reflected up. Seemed like a very knowledgeable person in this field that has dedicated his life to building the best most efficient outdoor furnace to me.... just my thoughts... If it burns less wood and doesn't smoke up the environment, I'm for that .
Have looked at others and just don't "see" all the thought they've given to this model. I just have to figure out how to best utilize this vast heat producing capability, use it to feed two existing propane feed air handler furnaces, plumb in water to air exchangers just above the furnaces in their duct work, one on same level, one 30 feet up, and two hot water heaters.
After several comments and reviewing other's ideas, am starting to "see" that part can be very complicated to get right... picking the stove was easy!!
planning on how to plumb it up ain't.... thanks for everyones kind and thoughtful advice...still reading others post.... E- Status
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