Stove reccomendations and what is an Alcove?

[tappedandtagged]

Wife and I are building a new house in south Arkansas and would like the primary heat to come from a wood stove. I have a few questions and found this forum very helpful so far, just browsing as a non-registered user. Still needing a bit more guidance and figured I'd ask after I was unable to find the answers with the search function. Any help appreciated.

I believe the plans I've modified have the wood stove location in an alcove, but I'm not sure I know what an alcove really is. The stove will be set back into what I would consider an alcove, but the ceiling will be the full height of the cathedral ceiling in the room. As long as I maintain minimum clearances on the masonry sides and back and the ceiling is, well, not an issue, do I need to worry about anything extra for the install?

What stove companies have a good reputation? From what I gathered, US Stove Co. is one to avoid, and Blaze King is the bee's knees. From experience, my parents have had horrible results in heating with a buck stove fireplace insert. It was later moved into a shop as a freestanding stove, and still doesn't pump much heat out.

The local hardware stores carry Englander Summers Heat, US Stove and Buck Stoves. I'd prefer a non-cat stove for ease of maintenance and the bad experience with the cat Buck stove my parents had when I was a teen. If money was no issue, I'd likely order a Blaze King stove, but it seems those are outside of what I'm willing to pay right now. I'd like to buy local to avoid expensive frieght and/or keep the total cost under $1,500.

From the other posts, I know everyone is going to ask about floor layout and size. The house will be 1,800 square feet. I'm going to try to attach a floorplan pic for the layout aspect, hope it works. Thanks all.

 

[bholler]

What you have is an alcove and you really need to figure out what stove you are getting. Alcove clearance requirements vary greatly. And if you want non cat you wouldn't want a blaze king. Cats are great at burning clean while shut down low. But are not of much benefit when burning at higher output levels.

 

[tappedandtagged]

What you have is an alcove and you really need to figure out what stove you are getting. Alcove clearance requirements vary greatly. And if you want non cat you wouldn't want a blaze king. Cats are great at burning clean while shut down low. But are not of much benefit when burning at higher output levels.

Really looking at Englander Summer Heat 2000, model 50-SHSSW01. Price is great, I can get it locally and with the masonry surrounding in the alcove, the clearances seem to be right, given the builders put in an air gap behind the brick. But, the old adage of you get what you pay for is often true. Will the $1,000 Summers Heat 2000 suffice? Is it a good stove overall?

 

[begreen]

What is the width of the alcove from stud to stud, 60"? If so, the Englander 50 SSW01 will work with the stove side shields. There will be no need for the air gap behind the bricks. The clearance is to the nearest combustible which in this case will be the studs. Just be sure the stove has the side shields installed. There are some alternatives to consider like the Quadrafire 3100 and the Pacific Energy Super 27.

 

[Tron]

We put our Chinook in an alcove also about 60" wide. No issues with clearances, I was rather surprised how close it could be positioned to the rear wall (drywall, so considered flammable). I went for safety and moved it a few further inches out, but it's still pretty close.

 

[tappedandtagged]

From the way I read the layout, it is 60" from stud center to stud center, so only ~57" edge to edge. We can rob a bit more clearance from the built in cabinet. The builder wants to talk it over with on Monday when we do our final site visit, so I have a few days to decide on the actual stove. I'll look into those 2 stoves suggested by begreen and see which will work best.

After speaking with the builder a few moments ago, we are also considering removing the alcove, built in cabinet and moving the HVAC to the attic. The stove would then be moved to the top right corner of the living room. If we do that, I'd want to put an air return in the peak of the cathedral ceiling. My thought is when the warm air pools in the ceiling peak, we could, in theory, run the fan only on the HVAC and suck in warm air from the cathedral and distribute it through the house for minimal additional costs. Clearance issues with the alcove would be a moot point as well and our living area would be 3 feet wider. Small sacrifice would be 9 months out of the year, we'd have a wood stove just taking up room in the corner of the room, which I think I can live with.

 

[Tron]

As someone living in a home that has both HVAC systems in the attic and in a cabinet at ground level: go with the attic solution if there's enough room up there.
While I did some sound-deadening to the return air below the unit with carpet and a baffle, it's still kinda noisy (although lightyears better than before the soundproofing). In contrast, you don't hear anything from the unit in the attic apart from the sound the air rushing through the registers makes.

About that air return in the cathedral ceiling: the air filter is usually in the air return, so be reminded that you'll need to access ist every few months. We have air returns near the floor, and as expected running the fan does not do anything regarding heat distribution. That might be different with a ceiling return, but the air will still only be "elevated room temperature", whereas the hot air being produced by a heating system is much warmer. Depending on how long the ducts run in the (unisolated?) and cold attic, it may not amount to much.

 

[tappedandtagged]

Spoke with the CAD people making the changes. Definitely enough room in the attic for the HVAC, but said they couldn't put the air return in the cathedral. In thinking on it more, probably would be a bad idea for summer A/C use, as you're cooling hotter air from the 14' ceiling and making the machine work harder.

After much consideration, I think I'm doing away with the alcove.

Now to pick a stove!

The Summers Heat and recommended alternative of the Pacific Energy Super 27 have local dealers, although the PE dealer isn't the best place to work with...

 

[Tron]

I guess it depends on where you live and what you do more of: heating or cooling...

 

[tappedandtagged]

Ok, down to the following stoves:

Summers Heat by Englander, 2000
Drolet Escape 1800
Pacific Energy Super 27 (if I can get the dealer to answer me)

Corner install in 1800 sq foot house. Missing any good ones in the same price range? Any of those better/worse than the others?

 

[begreen]

Each stove is different. The Englander Madison is a good heater with a nice big glass view. I am not keen on the large bumpout doghouse on the front of the floor of the stove. It lifts up the edge of splits loaded N/S. But it is a capable heater. There have been quality control issues reported with some recent Englanders with warpage reported. This makes it hard to get a good door seal. I would verify with a straightedge at the stove shop that both the stove face and the door are absolutely flat. Drolet has a good track record and the 1800 Escape is a popular model. It's a good heater too. One caveat is that this is mostly an E/W loader. The PE Super's strength is in the firebox design and the regulated secondary air supply (EBT). The firebox uses stainless steel components, including the easily removable, secondary system baffle. This is much tougher than the fiberboard baffle on less expensive stoves.

 

[kennyp2339]

My thought is when the warm air pools in the ceiling peak, we could, in theory, run the fan only on the HVAC and suck in warm air from the cathedral and distribute it through the house for minimal additional costs

That does not work to well, in order for HVAC to blow warm air or redistribute warm air, the air needs to be approx 150deg or more, anything less will feel "chilly" when coming back out the registers, save your money and buy a ceiling fan that can be ran in reverse.
I dont know your location, but if your in a cold climate area, a wood stove should be located as centrally close to the middle of the dwelling as possible, if not then the most popular room of the house, your working with a blank slate here, so as far a s placement, remember that a woodstove is essentially a large manual space heater.
Drolet, Buck, Pacific Energy, Regency, Jotul, Quadrafire are all excellent non cat stoves

 

[DuaeGuttae]

After speaking with the builder a few moments ago, we are also considering removing the alcove, built in cabinet and moving the HVAC to the attic. The stove would then be moved to the top right corner of the living room. If we do that, I'd want to put an air return in the peak of the cathedral ceiling. My thought is when the warm air pools in the ceiling peak, we could, in theory, run the fan only on the HVAC and suck in warm air from the cathedral and distribute it through the house for minimal additional costs. Clearance issues with the alcove would be a moot point as well and our living area would be 3 feet wider. Small sacrifice would be 9 months out of the year, we'd have a wood stove just taking up room in the corner of the room, which I think I can live with.

I'd really be wary of moving the HVAC to the attic in terms of energy efficiency. Tron brings up a good point about noise, and you'd want to think about that, but you'd also want to think about the long-term cost of running an airhandler and ductwork in unconditioned space as opposed to keeping it within the conditioned envelope. I'd avoid the former if I could.

We bought a 1990's house in Texas with all the HVAC in the attic. They're all like that around here because there are no basements, and HVAC service people see it as entirely normal. More recent energy-conscious building trends are moving away from that, however. We are unusual, I think, in that we prefer to run efficient window-unit AC to cut down on our central load. It's cheaper, but does involve seeing and hearing the units.

If you leave the HVAC but remove the built-in shelves, how much space would that give you?

 

[Bad LP]

I built a spec house with the HVAC in the attic. Never again.

I manage a home with 5 HVAC units in the attic. What a freaking nightmare at service time. Bigger nightmare when they were replaced with 410A units.

 

[tappedandtagged]

Good points from Kenny about the air return. Also appreciate the stove info.

Ductwork is going to be ran in the attic regardless of where the inside unit is. No basement, so no other place to run it unless we run it exposed, which I'm not a fan of aesthetically.

If we move the stove and take put the built ins, it would leave a otherwise rectangular room with a weird stub closet sticking out into it.

As for AC replacement in the future, that is a legitimate concern. Meeting with the builder and job foreman Monday and will bring up the issues.

As for the stove, it definitely going in the corner. I believe it will make the entire room flow better.

 

[begreen]

That does not work to well, in order for HVAC to blow warm air or redistribute warm air, the air needs to be approx 150deg or more, anything less will feel "chilly" when coming back out the registers

This is often true. Oil or gas fired hvac system duct temps run around 125-145º. However, heat pump systems work with much lower temps, more like 90-120º. A good heat pump system will have fully sealed and insulated ductwork to minimize heat loss. If the ductwork is entirely within the heated envelope of the house, then using it to recirculate the heat may help. But in this case, if the system is in a cold attic, then there will be losses.

 

[SpaceBus]

Is there a way to make an aesthetically pleasing drop ceiling to hide the duct work so it does not have to run through an unconditioned space? I can't really add to what has already been said about stoves, but also consider a way to get outside air for the stove if possible. Otherwise you will need some sort of HRV type device.

 

[tappedandtagged]

Drop ceiling wouldn't work with this house plan. Down here, duct work in every house I've ever seen is run insulated through the attic, with few exceptions of exposed ductwork in shop-style metal homes. It's not something that concerns me since it's normal in this part of the US.

 

[SpaceBus]

Drop ceiling wouldn't work with this house plan. Down here, duct work in every house I've ever seen is run insulated through the attic, with few exceptions of exposed ductwork in shop-style metal homes. It's not something that concerns me since it's normal in this part of the US.

If you want higher energy costs, that's up to you, just trying to offer help. Just remember, just because everyone is doing it doesn't mean it's right. Most of the folks in my county burn cords and cords of fresh cut and split wood without letting it dry, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do it too.

 

[kennyp2339]

But in this case, if the system is in a cold attic, then there will be losses.

Im going on the idea of its a return first, meaning the air needs to be essentially sucked up, then travel to the air handler, then re-distributed, typically at least in my region, hvac code keeps the returns uninsulated and larger (cfm's) then aft of the air handler the main trunk is insulated, (I think R8) then the individual flex lines, its a large loop once you measure it all out and the air will not maintain temp, now if wanted to use return air with say a heat pump kicker for additional supplemental heat, I would say go for it, it wouldnt hurt at all, I would just have the hvac on a different zone so you not heating the stove area, only the furthest rooms.

 

[Tron]

Same here, running insulated ductwork through the un-insulated attic is normal. But don't get me started on insulation. I'm not from around here, and from what I see in our home and others makes me think that if people would invest $10k more building the house, they'd save multiple of that during the lifetime of the home. Making the outside walls 12" thick (it's just framework) and filling them with insulation goes a long way and is not really expensive. Insulating the attic may be a different story.

But back to the point, the most losses you have from a forced-air system are air losses by faulty seals, and not the heat loss through the duct. So if your HVAC builders do a good job there, that really helps.

@Bad LP: I don't really see the issue of servicing equipment up in the attic. There's floor boards around the units and leading to them, and there's space around them, so it's actually easier to service compared to a unit in a closet. Sure it gets hot in Summer up there, but HVAC service is usually done in spring or fall.

 

[Tron]

I would just have the hvac on a different zone so you not heating the stove area, only the furthest rooms.

OP's house is not that large, but going with two HAVC units and two zones (one that services the rooms that get heat from the stove, and one for those rooms that don't) certainly makes sense. Then you can run the stove and supplement heat to the other rooms as needed. Obviously a cost factor.

We have three units servicing three sections of the house, incidentally there's one bedroom in each. I don't think that's a coincidence. Sadly, it was not designed with a stove in mind, so the MBR and the living room with the stove are on one zone. Meaning the bedroom gets a bit colder than the living room, but that's ok for us.

But when building a new home, you could factor that in.

 

[begreen]

hvac code keeps the returns uninsulated

What code keeps the returns uninsulated? Ours are fully insulated and with good reason.

PS: This thread is quickly heading off the rails and out of hearth territory. For further hvac discussion start a new thread in the DIY forum.

 

[tappedandtagged]

Back away from HVAC and back to Hearth topics, I believe I'm going to go with the Drolet Columbia II. The Drolet climate chart says it's suitable for a 2,250 sq foot home (zone 3) With mine only being 1800, and the normally mild winters, I believe it'll work well.

From what I understand, the non-cat stoves like to burn at higher temps. If I went with the Escape 1800, I feel like for most of the heating season, I'd be running the family out of the house. Also, the Columbia is more aesthetically pleasing than the Escape 1800.

 

[begreen]

The amount of heat the stove puts out depends on the operator. If temps are mild, burn partial fires and just feed 2-3 splits on a reload. Or let the fire go out if the house is warm. This is especially true for morning fires on a sunny day.
Remember to plan for an outside air feed to the stove.