Talkin Cat

[bogydave]

I'm convinced that catalytic are the way to go for me.
Saved 40%+ on wood use (4 - 5 cords in my case), longer burn times, cleaner burning, good heat regulation.
If I replace the combustor every other year, I'm still way ahead $$.
The burning learning curve & taking the extra work to get dry wood add to their misuse & some not wanting to change burning habits.
The "Pay back" time is fast even if you just consider 40% less wood. (add in tax credits etc. even faster payback)
The "up front cost" slows the change to catalytics. (sometimes new piping needed too)
Not much time is spent calculating the long term $$ savings, year after year after year ........

 

[wkpoor]

Yeah really oddball ;-) ... Blaze King, Woodstock, Vermont Castings, Buck Stove. I believe Englander, Lopi and Jotul also made them in the past...

Yes oddball. BK stoves are superior to anything on the market but you typically find them in hardware stores. I live in a populated area near Seattle and the closest BK for me is an hour's drive away. Woodstock is very oddball, it's a freaking mail order stove company rarer than hen's teeth. VC is not even a real company anymore and only recently introduced a partial cat stove. Buck is about the closest to a normal stove you can get but do not have national exposure. We don't see Buck stoves out west.

So yes, oddball. I'm convinced that the cat stoves use a superior technology for the 24/7 burner. I want one, but don't fool yourselves, they are not mainstream at all.

I had never heard of BK before this froum but Buck Stoves are as plentiful as dandylions around here. I think my next stove will have both secondary and cat. I'm going all the way hehehhe.

 

[Todd]

Yeah really oddball ;-) ... Blaze King, Woodstock, Vermont Castings, Buck Stove. I believe Englander, Lopi and Jotul also made them in the past...

Yes oddball. BK stoves are superior to anything on the market but you typically find them in hardware stores. I live in a populated area near Seattle and the closest BK for me is an hour's drive away. Woodstock is very oddball, it's a freaking mail order stove company rarer than hen's teeth. VC is not even a real company anymore and only recently introduced a partial cat stove. Buck is about the closest to a normal stove you can get but do not have national exposure. We don't see Buck stoves out west.

So yes, oddball. I'm convinced that the cat stoves use a superior technology for the 24/7 burner. I want one, but don't fool yourselves, they are not mainstream at all.

I had never heard of BK before this froum but Buck Stoves are as plentiful as dandylions around here. I think my next stove will have both secondary and cat. I'm going all the way hehehhe.

So your going with the new Woodstock or the VC 2in1? ;-)

 

[wkpoor]

Funny
I think there was somebody doing it before them.

 

[ddddddden]

I think WK refers to the Elm hybrid. As for who did it first, I dunno what cat stove was the first to supply the cat with air by squirting the air across the top of the firebox, which also provides for non-cat secondary combustion, ~ a "hybrid" stove. This is how the Fireview 205 does it, and the design dates back to 1995 or so.

 

[ddddddden]

Ah, we missed Todd's wink. . .I think he was kidding ya, WK. Anyhow, for a stove not designated "hybrid," the Fireview spends a lot of time floating secondary flames in the firebox.

 

[Highbeam]

I curse you cat burners every time I return home from work and have to relight a new fire in a cold house. The little heritage non-cat just can't hold a fire from 7-5.

Hybrid or not, long and burn times is where it's at.

 

[wkpoor]

I'm getting an easy 10hrs on 5 splits of mixed, no Oak in there. Its typically abut 200 degrees at that point. Coals to relight I dunno since 10-12hrs there is always someone to stoke it. But judging on the coal base I would say several more hrs. I start with it at 500degrees stove top and as little incoming and outgoing air as possible and nothing but blue puffs. That settles it in for the long haul.
If I'm home and want to rock the heat then I'll give it more air and throw another in after a couple hrs.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

well,

i'll take a stab at it ;


for the record we built cat stoves frm the late 80's through the early 2000's before going to non-cat totally.

cat stoves have advantages and disadvantages just as non- cats do, biggest thing with non-cats is ease of operation. you literally can burn it like an old dragon, load light and go. cat stoves typically are a bit more involved. both do very well in controlling emissions however so the "clean burn IMHO is virtually a wash. burn times with cat stoves do generally stretch out a bit farher than non-cats as well, but non-cats typically rate higher in "btu/hr " which makes sense if ya think about it, faster burn time means faster release of energy. as for the fire itself, cat stoves (at least the ones ive operated) tend to make a lower smokier fire (which fuels the cat and lengthens burn time) this kind of fire isnt the most condusive to a clean glass or for that matter in my mind less attractive to look at. also in most cases cat replacement is a more involved task than changing say tubes and refractories in a non-cat. draw factor can be a point as well, typically a stronger draft is neeeded to "pul"" a cat stove than a non cat and a marginal draft can make a cat stove more finicky to operate at a reasonable rate than a non-cat.


now, all that is mostly my opinion, but looking at it from a builders standpoint, cat stoves (at least the ones we built), were harder to build and more labor intensive. our "non-cats" are much easier for us to manufacture.

from a "service tech's" standpoint, the easier operation made for far and away less "my stove dont draw" calls.

as for dealers, one , they sell more non-cat units overall now than in the past and many who have been in the buisness since the "phase 2" inception probably have a bit of a bad taste in their collective mouths from the early days of phase 2 which was fraught with hastily designed "gotta have somthing we can sell" units which came out in the earliest years of phase 2. many of these stoves were dogs to be quite honest, clunky and hard to operate. newer more thought out cat stoves are the norm now and a lot of the issues with first generation cat stoves are a thing of the past, but the bad taste probably still lingers.

FWIW i like cat stoves as i do the non cat, but im a seasoned veteran of burning phase 2 stoves where a lot of new stove owners arent and typically struggle with operating a cat unit. in my opinion though, when run properly there is nothing wrong with either type of unit and as far as one being better than the other its kinda like the "ford chevy" arguement

 

[buggyspapa]

There's no doubt in my mind that the lack of appropriate education about catalyst stoves and their maintenance requirements make them less desirable. But there is more than that. The house that I'm renting came with a VC Encore 2550 cat stove the owner purchased in 2002. The idea of replacing the cat (which was crumbling) made no impression on the owner, an otherwise intelligent and informed person that won't burn any wood not seasoned for 3 years, but for some reason will throw in all the no-no paper products, painted wood scraps and the like. I started reading here as I began doing some work on the stove, because my experience with wood burning dates back to the late 70's when my Dad built a barrel kit stove, and later bought an All-Nighter. We burned anything that came along for 8 years, including several van loads of wooden shoe lasts that came out of an old warehouse. The common sense advice on this site is excellent, but does tend to come from wood enthusiasts and probably doesn't register with the average burner. Nevermind the technical stuff. My landlord would consider Hearth a waste of time, but his passion is Civil War reenactments

One of the guys I work with has heated with wood for 20+ years. Last year he went from a smoke dragon to a Lopi Liberty that he bought used. He had no idea what the stove was! He's burned the same way he always has in the new stove and apparently has ruined the reburn tubes. But when I started telling him about the idea that he could burn less wood and get more even heat with the stove, he went and read the manual and is replacing the tubes. Since he generally cuts his own wood, he's attracted to the idea of spending less time and energy that the improved stove offers. He isn't concerned about the reduction in pollution. I'm working on the concept of using dry wood. I wish he'd spend some time on Hearth, but reading about wood burning just isn't that interesting to him. I think he might "turn" eventually.

My observation about most of the people posting here is that they have adapted their life to burning wood, which involves a lot more thought and energy than buying a couple of cords every fall to burn on weekends. Given that most of those weekend folks don't want to know anything about chainsaws, splitters, and seasoning it isn't a wonder that they don't get great results out of their stoves either.

I had to think about it for a while why some people on here put things like "mauls" or "sledges" in their signature. I assumed that those sorts of things would be obvious for wood burners. But the deeper meaning there, that I appreciate now after six intense months of cutting, dragging, splitting to get ready for NEXT year, is the desire to demonstrate commitment and pride in living this way. It isn't for show, or weekends or anything that superficial. Naturally, those folks obsessed with CW reenacting wouldn't get that, as I would glaze over on the list of authentic gear in their sigs on a forum.

 

[rdust]

well,

i'll take a stab at it ;


for the record we built cat stoves frm the late 80's through the early 2000's before going to non-cat totally.

cat stoves have advantages and disadvantages just as non- cats do, biggest thing with non-cats is ease of operation. you literally can burn it like an old dragon, load light and go. cat stoves typically are a bit more involved. both do very well in controlling emissions however so the "clean burn IMHO is virtually a wash. burn times with cat stoves do generally stretch out a bit farher than non-cats as well, but non-cats typically rate higher in "btu/hr " which makes sense if ya think about it, faster burn time means faster release of energy. as for the fire itself, cat stoves (at least the ones ive operated) tend to make a lower smokier fire (which fuels the cat and lengthens burn time) this kind of fire isnt the most condusive to a clean glass or for that matter in my mind less attractive to look at. also in most cases cat replacement is a more involved task than changing say tubes and refractories in a non-cat. draw factor can be a point as well, typically a stronger draft is neeeded to "pul"" a cat stove than a non cat and a marginal draft can make a cat stove more finicky to operate at a reasonable rate than a non-cat.


now, all that is mostly my opinion, but looking at it from a builders standpoint, cat stoves (at least the ones we built), were harder to build and more labor intensive. our "non-cats" are much easier for us to manufacture.

from a "service tech's" standpoint, the easier operation made for far and away less "my stove dont draw" calls.

as for dealers, one , they sell more non-cat units overall now than in the past and many who have been in the buisness since the "phase 2" inception probably have a bit of a bad taste in their collective mouths from the early days of phase 2 which was fraught with hastily designed "gotta have somthing we can sell" units which came out in the earliest years of phase 2. many of these stoves were dogs to be quite honest, clunky and hard to operate. newer more thought out cat stoves are the norm now and a lot of the issues with first generation cat stoves are a thing of the past, but the bad taste probably still lingers.

FWIW i like cat stoves as i do the non cat, but im a seasoned veteran of burning phase 2 stoves where a lot of new stove owners arent and typically struggle with operating a cat unit. in my opinion though, when run properly there is nothing wrong with either type of unit and as far as one being better than the other its kinda like the "ford chevy" arguement

Thanks Mike! When people in the industry take the time to answer questions it really helps out!

I do think the members that post on this site on a regular basis have a stove/wood use IQ much different from the average user/weekend warrior.

 

[neumsky]

Yeah really oddball ;-) ... Blaze King, Woodstock, Vermont Castings, Buck Stove. I believe Englander, Lopi and Jotul also made them in the past...

Yes oddball. BK stoves are superior to anything on the market but you typically find them in hardware stores. I live in a populated area near Seattle and the closest BK for me is an hour's drive away. Woodstock is very oddball, it's a freaking mail order stove company rarer than hen's teeth. VC is not even a real company anymore and only recently introduced a partial cat stove. Buck is about the closest to a normal stove you can get but do not have national exposure. We don't see Buck stoves out west.

So yes, oddball. I'm convinced that the cat stoves use a superior technology for the 24/7 burner. I want one, but don't fool yourselves, they are not mainstream at all.

Is'nt this interesting....Hmmm! Thanx Smileys Jeff

 

[neumsky]

well,

i'll take a stab at it ;


for the record we built cat stoves frm the late 80's through the early 2000's before going to non-cat totally.

cat stoves have advantages and disadvantages just as non- cats do, biggest thing with non-cats is ease of operation. you literally can burn it like an old dragon, load light and go. cat stoves typically are a bit more involved. both do very well in controlling emissions however so the "clean burn IMHO is virtually a wash. burn times with cat stoves do generally stretch out a bit farher than non-cats as well, but non-cats typically rate higher in "btu/hr " which makes sense if ya think about it, faster burn time means faster release of energy. as for the fire itself, cat stoves (at least the ones ive operated) tend to make a lower smokier fire (which fuels the cat and lengthens burn time) this kind of fire isnt the most condusive to a clean glass or for that matter in my mind less attractive to look at. also in most cases cat replacement is a more involved task than changing say tubes and refractories in a non-cat. draw factor can be a point as well, typically a stronger draft is neeeded to "pul"" a cat stove than a non cat and a marginal draft can make a cat stove more finicky to operate at a reasonable rate than a non-cat.


now, all that is mostly my opinion, but looking at it from a builders standpoint, cat stoves (at least the ones we built), were harder to build and more labor intensive. our "non-cats" are much easier for us to manufacture.

from a "service tech's" standpoint, the easier operation made for far and away less "my stove dont draw" calls.

as for dealers, one , they sell more non-cat units overall now than in the past and many who have been in the buisness since the "phase 2" inception probably have a bit of a bad taste in their collective mouths from the early days of phase 2 which was fraught with hastily designed "gotta have somthing we can sell" units which came out in the earliest years of phase 2. many of these stoves were dogs to be quite honest, clunky and hard to operate. newer more thought out cat stoves are the norm now and a lot of the issues with first generation cat stoves are a thing of the past, but the bad taste probably still lingers.

FWIW i like cat stoves as i do the non cat, but im a seasoned veteran of burning phase 2 stoves where a lot of new stove owners arent and typically struggle with operating a cat unit. in my opinion though, when run properly there is nothing wrong with either type of unit and as far as one being better than the other its kinda like the "ford chevy" arguement

Thank You Mike Jeff

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Yes. My wood burning days go back into the 1940's and we've burned in several different stoves. We had to learn something new when we got our cat stove. It took us a week or so to really get it down pat, but because our heat comes only from the wood stove, that learning time came in the early season where if we made mistake, we didn't freeze. By the time cold weather came we had no problems. However, the biggest problem most folks have is simply because of the wood they try to burn. 99% of the baloney we read about poor stoves and chimneys can be traced back to poor wood. I am totally convinced that it is not cat or non-cat or any other type of stove as much as it is getting good fuel go burn. We are seeing much of this every year now when folks come on here and say that they never realized just how much better the stove is now that they are 2 or 3 years ahead with their wood supply. Until something else changes, it is all in the fuel.

 

[neumsky]

2 or 3 years??? I thought a year was good... But 2 or 3 years...does'nt your wood go Pfff in a nano second?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

It depends upon the wood. A year is good for most wood but not all. Oak we always go 3 years. Does my wood go Pfff in a nano second? Not on your life! Case in point: Last fall I took some wood to the Woodstock Open House. We have sort of a running disagreement on dry wood. Long story short, the wood burned excellently in their new stove plus in the Fireview they also had burning. That wood was cut, split and stacked in December of 2002. It did not go Pfff at all.

 

[neumsky]

That's good to know...thanx Jeff

 

[VCBurner]

2 or 3 years??? I thought a year was good... But 2 or 3 years...does'nt your wood go Pfff in a nano second?

You crack me up, Jeff!
It probably would in a Black Bear, ha ha ha!
No, in all seriousness, great thread, great discussion.

Now to address other posts.
Oddball though, really?
How can you call VC an oddball company? One of the most popular names in the industry. Woodstock is not a mainstream giant, but they are better off that way. They don't have to sell their soul and can do what customers really deserve. Create a product they believe and strive to make superior. Blaze King is very popular in Canada. A trully superior quality product. The king of performance.

I understand though, minority is more like it. Just because there is less of something doesn't mean it is odd. Just because some companies shied away from the technology doesn't mean it is a dying breed. The mainstream just wasn't ready for it and some companies tried to slap cats in every stove pipe just to say it was a cat. The maintream is still not ready for some things, including some dealers. More education for them would have to come from the manufacturers, they just want to turn a profit the easiest way possible, for the most part. The consumer ends up with the tough job of decifering the good from the bad, be it catalytic or non catalytic.

People who really care about what they sell, produce or use end up being the oddballs.

 

[neumsky]

Well Chris... I do my best...sometimes without knowing it haha. Good response or post! Thank God for these forums!

 

[jharkin]

VC is certainly not oddball, and they certainly dint "only recently" start making Cats... They have been making cats since the 80s without interruption.

What they have been is bought and sold a few times and quality sadly suffered. I really hope they are turning around as some say as I love their look. My 2550 is a beast of a heater once you get it sealed up tight and learn its quirks. But I wont argue that its much higher maintenance investment than a secondary burn stove.

 

[MrWhoopee]

When I went stove shopping, I was told that cats were the early/easy way to meet EPA until the stoves could be redesigned (particularly cast stoves) for secondaries. I was also told that cats were tempermental to operate and expensive to replace. Until I found this forum, I thought cats were obsolete.

On the subject of operating instructions, I received none from the dealer nor in the stove literature. I didn't understand proper operation until I started reading this forum. Unfortunately, operating my stove for cleanest, most efficient burn overheats the house making it unbearable. Most of the time it's a smoke dragon. :red: