Tarm gasser should I buy it

[bulldogbones]

I found a HS Tarm Model 2002 102,500 BTU wood gasification boiler for $3k. Should I buy it or wait for a better deal???

 

[woodsmaster]

Dont forget the $1,500 tax credit for new ones. If you have the extra money till next years taxes may want to consider new. can't get a new tarm for $4,500 but some other models come close to that. Just a thought.

 

[bulldogbones]

I'm pretty sure the unit doesn't have to be bought brand new from a dealer but it has to meet the $1500 tax credit criteria. I understand what your saying, that the unit I am talking about might be to old to qualify. I will
have to look into it. Because if it's a gasser and it is meeting the qualifications then it should qualify. I know it doesn't have to be brand new because the corn boiler that I bought last winter and didn't like was two years old but it still qualified for the credit.

 

[pybyr]

I'm pretty sure the unit doesn't have to be bought brand new from a dealer but it has to meet the $1500 tax credit criteria. I understand what your saying, that the unit I am talking about might be to old to qualify. I will
have to look into it. Because if it's a gasser and it is meeting the qualifications then it should qualify. I know it doesn't have to be brand new because the corn boiler that I bought last winter and didn't like was two years old but it still qualified for the credit.

Hate to bring the pissoir to the parade, but I wouldn't advise being so quick to "know" that it does not need to be brand new (unless you've come through an audit or have a ruling from the IRS). I believe that the IRC/ IRS regs for the credit are written in terms of "placed in service," and my understanding is that the IRS views that ("placed in service") as being something that happens once, and only once.

 

[ewdudley]

Hate to bring the pissoir to the parade, but I wouldn't advise being so quick to "know" that it does not need to be brand new (unless you've come through an audit or have a ruling from the IRS). I believe that the IRC/ IRS regs for the credit are written in terms of "placed in service," and my understanding is that the IRS views that ("placed in service") as being something that happens once, and only once.

You're so pessimistic! Surely it's the same as sales tax. If I buy a car for $15,000, I pay the sales tax. Then I sell it to you for $11,000, you pay the sales tax on the new price, and so forth on down the line.

So I'll buy a new boiler and place it in service and take the credit, then it goes to your house and you take the credit on the new price, and so forth down the line. Exactly the same logic as sales tax. How could it be possible that the exact same thing could be forbidden to me but SOP for the state?

 

[Donl]

So I'll buy a new boiler and place it in service and take the credit, then it goes to your house and you take the credit on the new price, and so forth down the line. Exactly the same logic as sales tax. How could it be possible that the exact same thing could be forbidden to me but SOP for the state?

Sounds like a good idea to me! Lets get 10 guys together and resell the unit to each over a ten day period. Each guy will get $1500.00 from the government for a total of $15,000.00. That will more than pay for the boiler. Count me in if it's legal.

 

[woodsmaster]

Heard somewhere on here that it does have to be new for the credit.

 

[bulldogbones]

I'm pretty sure the unit doesn't have to be bought brand new from a dealer but it has to meet the $1500 tax credit criteria. I understand what your saying, that the unit I am talking about might be to old to qualify. I will
have to look into it. Because if it's a gasser and it is meeting the qualifications then it should qualify. I know it doesn't have to be brand new because the corn boiler that I bought last winter and didn't like was two years old but it still qualified for the credit.

Hate to bring the pissoir to the parade, but I wouldn't advise being so quick to "know" that it does not need to be brand new (unless you've come through an audit or have a ruling from the IRS). I believe that the IRC/ IRS regs for the credit are written in terms of "placed in service," and my understanding is that the IRS views that ("placed in service") as being something that happens once, and only once.

Not to start a war. But IRS tax document 5695 on page three clearly states the following:


You may be able to take the credits if you made energy saving
improvements to your home located in the United States in 2009. For
credit purposes, costs are treated as being paid when the original
installation of the item is completed, or in the case of costs connected
with the construction or reconstruction of your home, when your original
use of the constructed or reconstructed home begins. If less than 80%
of the use of an item is for nonbusiness purposes, only that portion of
the costs that are allocable to the nonbusiness use can be used to
determine the credits.



The Paragraph begins with (YOU) so we clearly understand who the paragraph is talking about , ME the person, the person filing this tax document. We can now procede to the Second line, For credit purposes, costs are treated as being paid when the original installation of the item is completed. If we now re'read from the begining which starts with "You" to the first comma in the second sentence we see nowhere does the wording talk about, express, nor does it imply (the units original installation). No it clearly states (original installation of the item is completed). So since we have only read up to the first comma in the second sentence, and hopefully that isnt to much to digest, but what that is saying is,

I may be able to take the credits if I made energy saving
improvements to My home located in the United States in 2009. For
credit purposes, costs are treated as being paid when My original
installation of the item is completed,

 

[bulldogbones]

So I'll buy a new boiler and place it in service and take the credit, then it goes to your house and you take the credit on the new price, and so forth down the line. Exactly the same logic as sales tax. How could it be possible that the exact same thing could be forbidden to me but SOP for the state?

Sounds like a good idea to me! Lets get 10 guys together and resell the unit to each over a ten day period. Each guy will get $1500.00 from the government for a total of $15,000.00. That will more than pay for the boiler. Count me in if it's legal.

That would only work for the last guy. Reason being is when that last guy fills out the tax paper work provided by the manufacture and writes down the serial number He will be the only one that owns it. The previous 9 guys paper work that has that same serial number will raise red flags. The last guy will be fine because he has to be able to show date of the sale. So who ever shows the last and latest sale date wins. Meaning the guy that owned the boiler before be wont be able to claim that boiler on his taxes and get the credit. Because that boiler went out of service in 09. Had the guy waited to sell the boiler Jan 1 2010 then he could have claimed it.

 

[bulldogbones]

I'm pretty sure the unit doesn't have to be bought brand new from a dealer but it has to meet the $1500 tax credit criteria. I understand what your saying, that the unit I am talking about might be to old to qualify. I will
have to look into it. Because if it's a gasser and it is meeting the qualifications then it should qualify. I know it doesn't have to be brand new because the corn boiler that I bought last winter and didn't like was two years old but it still qualified for the credit.

Hate to bring the pissoir to the parade, but I wouldn't advise being so quick to "know" that it does not need to be brand new (unless you've come through an audit or have a ruling from the IRS). I believe that the IRC/ IRS regs for the credit are written in terms of "placed in service," and my understanding is that the IRS views that ("placed in service") as being something that happens once, and only once.

I would have expected more from someone with as many posts as you do to have a little more tact and to show documentation for your conclusions. Rather then tell me I have no clue what I am talking about and that I am ( to quick to "know" what I know)



I am here to learn, not to be looked down upon. I know I dont know everythng about wood burning thats why I am here. But the LAST place I would look for tax advise is from a Forum and that goes for any Forum. The only person that I ask tax information from is my accountant.

 

[WoodNotOil]

I'm pretty sure the unit doesn't have to be bought brand new from a dealer but it has to meet the $1500 tax credit criteria. I understand what your saying, that the unit I am talking about might be to old to qualify. I will
have to look into it. Because if it's a gasser and it is meeting the qualifications then it should qualify. I know it doesn't have to be brand new because the corn boiler that I bought last winter and didn't like was two years old but it still qualified for the credit.

Hate to bring the pissoir to the parade, but I wouldn't advise being so quick to "know" that it does not need to be brand new (unless you've come through an audit or have a ruling from the IRS). I believe that the IRC/ IRS regs for the credit are written in terms of "placed in service," and my understanding is that the IRS views that ("placed in service") as being something that happens once, and only once.

I would have expected more from someone with as many posts as you do to have a little more tact and to show documentation for your conclusions. Rather then tell me I have no clue what I am talking about and that I am ( to quick to "know" what I know)



I am here to learn, not to be looked down upon. I know I dont know everythng about wood burning thats why I am here. But the LAST place I would look for tax advise is from a Forum and that goes for any Forum. The only person that I ask tax information from is my accountant.

bulldogbones - I don't think Pybyr meant it as a put down. He is a lawyer, so probably has experience with the language used in tax law. If you look closely, he is cautioning everyone to not jump to conclusions about what qualifies for the tax credit. Sometimes our messages become a little abrupt due to answering posts quickly in between other things we are doing. I know I have been guilty of it at times too. You will find this is a great place to learn and that everyone is really kind and considerate and helpful. We don't post so many responses to boost our own egos, we do it to contribute and help where we can...

 

[jj2003]

speaking of tarm , does anyone know the exhaust temp of one ? , and does the garn have better effic. because of more heat ex. tube? What Im trying to do is figure out if i want to go with a garn or a smaller unit with 1000 gal storage. would i get the same thing in the end and couldnt i just do batch burns with a smaller unit?

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Have to agree that the Gov. in this situation is interested in some sort of stimulation for the economy (maybe environment too) hence the rebate. However any Gov. is far more used to collecting money not giving it out, therefore the rebate probably applies to new sales only of approved units, doubtful that they want to stimulate the sale of used boilers from one person to another where taxes may not apply. I could be wrong but I would be paying careful attention to the "fine print". Pybyr's advise is sound. Give that document a careful & thorough read.

 

[DaveBP]

More important, I think, than the precise wording (there's an oxymoron for you) in tax law is how it is being interpreted by the IRS. If you are the sort who looks forward to going to court against the IRS to defend your interpretation of their law... well, bon appetit.

I would pay a tax accountant to tell me what people are getting away with and how the IRS has been enforcing their rules. That's more important to me than the wording of the rules. It's tricky with a new rule to know all this, I know.

If there were only one way to interpret legal wording, we would have a lot fewer lawyers in this country.

 

[webie]

really really guys lets get back to the original start ............The guy wants to know if its worth it .
I would sayif you can get a new gasser for 5000 and get a 1500 rebate noway I would use that to lower the price , If you can get it for like 2000 maybe 2500 in great shape thats not to bad a deal but see what and how the guy used it .
Webie

 

[WoodNotOil]

Most boiler retailers are advertising the credit and will supply you with the correct documentation. Beyond that consult someone for sure...

 

[bulldogbones]

I guess for some clarification I am in no way trying to be sneaky and screw the Gov. Thats the last web I want to tangle with. But that being said, the corn burning boiler that I bought last year met the Gov's standards and this is the Certificate that LDJ provides http://www.ldjamaizeingheat.com/media/LDJ-Certification.pdf


So that is why I have been looking for a used unit, because there is now way I am going to buy a Brand new unit and try to get a tax home heating credit for 2010 next april, that would be just asking for trouble.

 

[pybyr]

I'm pretty sure the unit doesn't have to be bought brand new from a dealer but it has to meet the $1500 tax credit criteria. I understand what your saying, that the unit I am talking about might be to old to qualify. I will
have to look into it. Because if it's a gasser and it is meeting the qualifications then it should qualify. I know it doesn't have to be brand new because the corn boiler that I bought last winter and didn't like was two years old but it still qualified for the credit.

Hate to bring the pissoir to the parade, but I wouldn't advise being so quick to "know" that it does not need to be brand new (unless you've come through an audit or have a ruling from the IRS). I believe that the IRC/ IRS regs for the credit are written in terms of "placed in service," and my understanding is that the IRS views that ("placed in service") as being something that happens once, and only once.

I would have expected more from someone with as many posts as you do to have a little more tact and to show documentation for your conclusions. Rather then tell me I have no clue what I am talking about and that I am ( to quick to "know" what I know)



I am here to learn, not to be looked down upon. I know I dont know everythng about wood burning thats why I am here. But the LAST place I would look for tax advise is from a Forum and that goes for any Forum. The only person that I ask tax information from is my accountant.

bulldogbones - I don't think Pybyr meant it as a put down. He is a lawyer, so probably has experience with the language used in tax law. If you look closely, he is cautioning everyone to not jump to conclusions about what qualifies for the tax credit. Sometimes our messages become a little abrupt due to answering posts quickly in between other things we are doing. I know I have been guilty of it at times too. You will find this is a great place to learn and that everyone is really kind and considerate and helpful. We don't post so many responses to boost our own egos, we do it to contribute and help where we can...

My initial wording clearly left the wrong impression, and so I apologize, but as Andrew (WNO) said, I wasn't intending to be snide. I'd just be really, really careful about trying to get a credit for a used unit. The ability to claim and receive a credit is one thing; finding out how it gets treated if there is later an audit is another (and costs of responding to/ defending an audit might dwarf a $1500 credit even if you prevail in the end- to to mention penalties and interest if you don't prevail)(and the uncertainty can hang out there for some years until the IRS's window to go back and audit you eventually closes on the relevant year). I expect that the IRS's view of the credit is that it was enacted by Congress to (a) increase deployment of clean burning/ efficient appliances; and (b) stimulate manufacture and marketing of the same clean burning/ efficient appliances. Does a credit for a used one accomplish/ encourage either? Unless you can clearly argue that it does, I expect the IRS to focus on the revenue factor, which gives them reason to deny the credit on used ones. I'd be glad to find out it turns out the other way, I'm just suggesting "proceed with caution" and I'm not giving advice to anyone. Best wishes on whatever you choose, boiler-wise and tax-strategy-wise.

 

[bulldogbones]

Pm sent








tencharacters

 

[altheating]

My tax guy said that the $1500 tax credit was once in a lifetime credit, so if you used it on a qualifying product last year you can't get it again in 2010. According to him and others that i have spoken to since, use it only once and then the credit is gone.

 

[webbie]

I answered more completely in another thread- but I would not pay 3K for an 18 year old gasifier in this case - too many questions about how it was used, and therefore how long it might last. Unlike a basic steel stove, used is not "good as new".