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The day Harman Died

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by cimbo190, Jul 18, 2008.

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  1. cimbo190

    cimbo190 New Member

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    I am sure this is premature but the broken "promise" make one wonder if this is not the start of a downward spiral for a company that could not deliver.

    I still cannot bring myself to think it is only Harmans fault.

    I keep asking myself how you think you (you being a stove dealer) can suddenly sell several times the usual volume of a product without some level of concern of being able to deliver.

    Did these stove dealers think they were ht only ones asking Harman to give them several times their historical volume of product.

    Too bad because the easy thing to say is "it serves them right", but really nobody deserves this heartache.

    My sense from reading this forum is there are other dealers and products that will somehow step up to the plate and deliver.

    I hope I am not a fool, but that is what I tell myself so I can sleep in peace.

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  2. hoverfly

    hoverfly Minister of Fire

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    The worst thing Harman can do is sacrifice quality of the product and safety of others with a compromised product just to satisfied a sudden demand. Just one at this time will give Harman a bad rep. In one year oil doubled, no way a company could of predicted this sudden demand and if they did expanding production could take a year or more before one stove can off the those new lines. A broken promise of having one will be forgotten, once they get the joy of guilty they remain quite...a piece of crap......one person will tell 100.
  3. rayttt

    rayttt Feeling the Heat

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    Harmon was just bought up by quadrafire, I think this past winter.

    Id imagine it will take them some period of time to get to 100% of what they were..and to then increase production.
    Id think quadrafire beings they are higher producers, will be able to bring that know how to the table and make it all good.
  4. richg

    richg Minister of Fire

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    The people we should be pointing fingers at are the ones we see in the mirror. Decades ago, we should have been screaming to develop alternate sources of energy, but we did not. Nuclear, wind, solar, US oil, youn ame it. Instead we were fat dumb and happy during the 1990's when oil hit $10.00 a barrel. The chickens have come home to roost, and blamestorming (not brainstorming), serves no purpose at all. Where were all the people screaming for pellet stoves in 2007 when Dane's company was struggling? No, oil had dropped and the hordes forgot about pellets. Dane had to sell for a third of what he had once been offered. When oil spiked this year and people's wallets get threatened, oh boy, the pellet stampede is on and people are blaming pellet mills and stove manufacturers for shortages. Ever hear of Aesop's fable of the ant and the grasshopper?
  5. hoverfly

    hoverfly Minister of Fire

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    People are qoing to have to suck it up this year. Some times being a follower has no rewards don't it? Now only if I can get me one ton of pellets I will be happy.
  6. hoverfly

    hoverfly Minister of Fire

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    Amen!!

    To bad Dane could not hold on a little longer.....Mabye he can start over, mabye not, it could be just a fad won't know untill the winter after next if oil stays high.
  7. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    NAILED IT !!!!!!!!!
  8. slls

    slls Minister of Fire

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    It’s not complicated at all, you go in a stove store to buy, pick one out . Well when can I get it, 4 weeks, 8 weeks or not at all.
    I was told 8 weeks, 4 are just about up, no word yet, so I assume it is still coming. If it doesn’t come, I will just have to adjust to that.
  9. jtp10181

    jtp10181 Minister of Fire

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    I'm sure one thing they don't want to do again is over produce, that's what got them in trouble the first time. Although now they have much more backup. Quad did the same thing last time around, way over produced and was left with tons of inventory.

    Anyway... bringing the Harman plant up to speed with HHT standards is in progress right now. Other than that I don't know much. I wish I could SEE it. I barley missed getting to go to Colville (Quad plant) earlier this year :(. Seen Heat & Glo and Heatilator though.

    I'm sure Harman will catch up and be in full swing by next summer, too bad they can;t keep up right now. I remember by first year in the biz (I think 3 years ago). We had a list pinned to the wall of people waiting for stoves. We never knew when they would show up from Quad.... sounds like the same deal going on with Harman right now.
  10. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep - Harman had pretty much shut down production when they were bought. The new company had a LOT to integrate, a NO ONE IN THE WORLD could predict a 3 to 10x rise in demand. As to making promises that can't be kept, that is done every day....it's called "sales". Some of it is in good faith - dealers can be a couple weeks behind on what is really going on....

    I'm certain that Harman (HHT) wants to deliver stoves as bad as folks want them. Hey, in the meantime oil might come down....who knows?
  11. cimbo190

    cimbo190 New Member

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    Excellent insight and perspective from all replies.

    A little bit of a different angle than I was thinking, but all are right on.

    I was not aware of the HHT prdocudtion cutback/shutdown.

    At least my excuse is I am new the the pellet market.

    Is this cutback in production fairly well known within the industry? I almost down't want to hear the answer.
  12. stumper

    stumper New Member

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    I am one of those that have been "left holding the bag" ,pellet bag that is, by Harman. My order was placed with the down payment and my name was on the list for the load of stoves that Harman told the dealer would arrive this month. To my dismay I was notified that the next potential delivery date is March and from other threads they are being told next June. Now I'm no businessman but it seems to me that any reputable company knows exactly how many of its product are produced in a day or week or month or year. The should also know what and when their supply of parts are being received and be able to project their output accordingly and be able to tell their dealers how many of their product can be shipped in a given time period. This is basic manufacturing 101, don't promise what you can't deliver.

    Stumper...... Maine
  13. jtp10181

    jtp10181 Minister of Fire

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    cimbo, he means they were shutdown before they were bought, now everything should be started up again, but at the same time I'm sure HHT is trying to implement new things for safety and cost savings in production.
  14. cimbo190

    cimbo190 New Member

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    [quote author="stumper" date="1216363270"]I am one of those that have been "left holding the bag" ,pellet bag that is, by Harman. My order was placed with the down payment and my name was on the list for the load of stoves that Harman told the dealer would arrive this month. To my dismay I was notified that the next potential delivery date is March and from other threads they are being told next June. Now I'm no businessman but it seems to me that any reputable company knows exactly how many of its product are produced in a day or week or month or year. The should also know what and when their supply of parts are being received and be able to project their output accordingly and be able to tell their dealers how many of their product can be shipped in a given time period. This is basic manufacturing 101, don't promise what you can't deliver.

    Stumper...... Maine[/quote]


    Can't argue with any of that logic. I agree 100%, but what is clear is both the manufacturer and stove dealers were not on the same page.
  15. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    Can't argue with any of that logic. I agree 100%, but what is clear is both the manufacturer and stove dealers were not on the same page.[/quote]

    im with cimbo on that one , though stumper didnt get what he deserved in the deal obviously , it wasnt harman that took his order from him , communication between manufacturer and dealer seems to be the culpret to me too. hopefully , with the backing of HHT, harman stoves will soon be getting back in stores in reasonable numbers , the buyout and the closing which preceeded it obviously cut a big hole in their production capacity. i know from experience , it takes time to get back in the swing of things. now im sure thats not exactly what the folks who are waiting for stoves wanted to hear because there's no consolation in it. and before anyone thinks im gloating , thats as far from true as it gets , the industry needs harman, i hope they get it cranked up as much as anyone , and more importantly to me , i am a huge fan of dane. got to meet him in atlanta at the show , and was just thrilled for the opportunity to shake that man's hand and talk stoves with an industry giant.
  16. arthurlange

    arthurlange New Member

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    TO POST THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH IN THE MATTER. HARMAN WAS NOT BOUGHT OUT BY QUADRAFIRE. THEY WERE BOUGHT OUT BY HHT WHICH PREVIOUSLY PRODUCED QUADS. ANY DEALER TRYIN TO SELL THEIR STOVE OVER A HARMAN TWISTS THIS TALE. IMO.. AFTER DOING THE RESEARCH.. HARMAN AND QUAD.. NECK AND NECK.. ALL OTHER BRANDS, BASICALLY THE SAME.
  17. Turbozcs2003

    Turbozcs2003 New Member

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    im with cimbo on that one , though stumper didnt get what he deserved in the deal obviously , it wasnt harman that took his order from him , communication between manufacturer and dealer seems to be the culpret to me too. hopefully , with the backing of HHT, harman stoves will soon be getting back in stores in reasonable numbers , the buyout and the closing which preceeded it obviously cut a big hole in their production capacity. i know from experience , it takes time to get back in the swing of things. now im sure thats not exactly what the folks who are waiting for stoves wanted to hear because there's no consolation in it. and before anyone thinks im gloating , thats as far from true as it gets , the industry needs harman, i hope they get it cranked up as much as anyone , and more importantly to me , i am a huge fan of dane. got to meet him in atlanta at the show , and was just thrilled for the opportunity to shake that man's hand and talk stoves with an industry giant.[/quote]

    Can you venture a guess as to how many stoves they sell a year?? How about Englanders capacity assuming it isnt confidential.

    I have worked in manufacturing and I can tell you that it isnt the dealers fault at all. As they take deposits and order stoves from Harman, at some point the planners at Harman should have instructed the dealers to stop taking any more deposits. Also I have a hard time believing that they are backlogged 6-9 months, ie no new orders for 9 months just to catch up on existing ones???

    I am on the hook for a P68 ordered in early June for a sept install and I will probably wait for it, when ever it comes in but I cant blame anyone who cancels and wants their deposit back so they can and probably need it to purchase oil or someone elses stove assuming they can still find one. I also have 5 tons of Pellets sitting in my garage, that is the disappointing part but not much I can do.
  18. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    If Harman moved dates as far back as this poster says - 6 months or more when promises were one month - no, that type of delay was never heard about in the industry....at least no where I know of.

    Up until I heard this, the assumption was that the stoves in stock (at dealers) had sold out and that Harman was going full tilt to try and produce more stoves and fill the pipeline. If it is really true now that they have moved promised (not new) orders back a number of months...well, that shows a major problem somewhere in the ranks.

    As I have said before, this company (HHT) has a pretty good rep for being honest, but the charter of most corporations calls for them to make money for the shareholders. Usually, that ends up being a win-win-win for the company, dealers and customers....but once in a while it does not.

    Still, my guess is that these problem are beyond the control of anyone involved in the chain.
  19. stoveguy13

    stoveguy13 Minister of Fire

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    Just a quick note if 1% of the population went to look for a wood or pellet stove that would be about 3,000,000 people stove industry builds about 300,000 wood and pellet stoves a year. kind of a hard jump to make in a few months.
  20. NoMoreOPEC

    NoMoreOPEC Member

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    There are many reason's why this has happened:

    1) Companies are sometimes acquired for the customer base and Dealers. (To eliminate the competition)

    2) Harmon may be having QC problems or production problems after Quadrafire (HHT) retooled there plant.

    I tend to believe it is the latter since we are not seeing allot of new quadrafire dealers replacing the Harmon dealers.

    JMHO

    Greg
  21. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Stovguy13 said:
    of 1% of americans went out to shop for a stove.......
    ------------------------

    Exactly......but we are so used to a "consumer culture" that can meet instant demands - much easier in the cast of iphones or something like that, but when you need steel, cast iron and lots of labor to build a product...that is much harder.

    ------------------------

    Of course, people don't shop for pellet stoves - households do. So we have to take the number down to well less than 50 million who would live in a climate cool enough and would have a house (not an apartment, high rise, condo)....probably even less than that.

    Still, a visit to even the biggest stove factories will show you that even those companies making 30K stoves a year are making them by hand, one by one. Look at the Travis tour on this site - or the Jotul tour and you will not see robots or mass production in the normal sense.
  22. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    [quote author="TurboZ" date="1216397629Can you venture a guess as to how many stoves they sell a year?? How about Englanders capacity assuming it isnt confidential.

    I have worked in manufacturing and I can tell you that it isnt the dealers fault at all. As they take deposits and order stoves from Harman, at some point the planners at Harman should have instructed the dealers to stop taking any more deposits. Also I have a hard time believing that they are backlogged 6-9 months, ie no new orders for 9 months just to catch up on existing ones???

    I am on the hook for a P68 ordered in early June for a sept install and I will probably wait for it, when ever it comes in but I cant blame anyone who cancels and wants their deposit back so they can and probably need it to purchase oil or someone elses stove assuming they can still find one. I also have 5 tons of Pellets sitting in my garage, that is the disappointing part but not much I can do.[/quote]

    we are projecting upwards of 40K units this year this is of all types, wood gas coal and multifuel , i dont have any idea of the mix, but i assume its pellet heavy. this is a signifigant increase from last year , however we have our new plant up and fully functional now so the projection is actually attainable.
  23. slls

    slls Minister of Fire

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    I wonder what really happened at Harmon. Why the stoves were canceled, could not get vendor items or what. Maybe the reason will leak, it usually does over time.
  24. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    i still think they simply did not have the time after starting back up to build enough ahead and with orders flying in at record pace they were just flat unable to run what they would have to run. as i stated before its hard to start up from being shut down. when i first started at ESW we would shut down to bare minimums keeping key personnel and use the winter for maintenance while building very few stoves, we would start very slowly , increasing as we added more people back to the production line , bought more steel and parts from vendors etc. if harman shut down totally , then they would not have had inbound parts in the pipeline , workers would have been laid off and possibly moved to other jobs, training new workers takes time too. im not trying to paint a prettier picture on it but i can understand why they do not have the product , they simply could not get geared up fast enough to make enough product for this season. now had it been a slow year yeah they may have been able to pull it off , but demand is stupid high this year and with the shutdown they lost too much time and probably a lot of their trained workforce. its just too much to overcome.
  25. cimbo190

    cimbo190 New Member

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    From the sound of that - which is very palusible, I am not sure a Harman would still be a Harman anymore.
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